I was writing a review for the book "The Wisdom of Insecurity" by Alan Watts on fb today. That was an influential book for me back at a time when I liked a lot of woo. Seriously, while Watts tends to over-reach at times he also makes some good points, I still think.

Here are a couple quotes about belief in God and how that is in opposition to faith.

Quote #1: “If we cling to belief in God, we cannot likewise have faith, since faith is not clinging but letting go.”

Quote #2: “For we have never actually understood the revolutionary sense beneath them [the words*] – the incredible truth that what religion calls the vision of God is found in giving up any belief in the idea of God.”

*My insertion.

Essentially Watts thinks we are in flight from uncertainty and that leads to many compromises and poor choices all in hopes of attaining certainty .. which is and always will be elusive anyway. Whatever glimpse of God may be possible and what that could even mean is something which no one will ever know who will not open his eyes to see but clings instead to belief. By clinging to 'the word', Christians miss the 'thing' itself, whatever that may be.

I wonder if we have any Christians on board who would like to explain to me how faith, which is synonymous with trust, is compatible with dogma. How can you say you have faith in the nearness of God if what you really mean is you have faith that the words written in the bible are true? Isn't your 'faith' in God really secondary to your belief in what that book says about God? You have no confidence in anything you experience in your relationship with God that even comes close to your belief in the words written in that book. You read those words into what you experience almost as a kind of self hypnosis. If God exists and really wants a relationship with you but the words written in that book are all you are willing to see, aren't you risking a lot?

[Hopefully it is clear why citing the bible would be an evasion of my question. The bible can't be the reason why you choose the bible over God. Either you have faith to open yourself to whatever God is and however He chooses to make Himself known to you, or you have your assumptions (ie, beliefs) from the bible.]

C.S. Lewis: "Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason has once accepted in spite of your changing moods."
This reason is gained not only through the Bible but through human experience. The Holy Spirit reveals himself to us and vanquishes all doubt. And once we believe, the Bible contains a whole new layer of meaning. I think to myself, "Humans could not write something so deep or true without outside help."

(August 2, 2012 at 1:24 am)Undeceived Wrote: C.S. Lewis: "Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason has once accepted in spite of your changing moods."
This reason is gained not only through the Bible but through human experience. The Holy Spirit reveals himself to us and vanquishes all doubt.

Well, so you say and so you may well believe, but how in the world can you possibly know that other than by deciding from the outset to do so? Reason doesn't point you to the bible, your parents do. Or the Koran, Torah, etc depending on the accident of your birthplace.

If I really wanted to know God, I would do everything in my power to cast off every outside influence and dedicate myself to opening myself to encountering whatever is there. If the Christian God is waiting for you in that encounter, then wonderful. But if not, don't you think you owe your fealty to God as He chooses to reveal Himself to you. Surely you don't think it is the place of humans to direct the will of God? But, in effect, that is what you do when you insist on the infallibility of the bible and distrust what comes to meet you when you truly open yourself to knowing Him.

Christians should really stop looking to the bible as a contract of what they can expect from God. It may be comforting to believe, but do you seek faith in God or a comfortable assumption?

(August 2, 2012 at 1:24 am)Undeceived Wrote: And once we believe, the Bible contains a whole new layer of meaning. I think to myself, "Humans could not write something so deep or true without outside help."

That is part of the self-fulfilling prophesy. Once you decide what to believe before you even invite God to reveal Himself to you, you've already decided what beliefs to reinforce in your imagination.

The strawmen abound in your OP.

1. Christians should really stop looking to the bible as a contract of what they can expect from God.
2. How can you say you have faith in the nearness of God if what you really mean is you have faith that the words written in the bible are true?
3. You have no confidence in anything you experience in your relationship with God that even comes close to your belief in the words written in that book.
4. By clinging to 'the word', Christians miss the 'thing' itself, whatever that may be.
5. That is part of the self-fulfilling prophesy. Once you decide what to believe before you even invite God to reveal Himself to you, you've already decided what beliefs to reinforce in your imagination.
6. Surely you don't think it is the place of humans to direct the will of God? But, in effect, that is what you do when you insist on the infallibility of the bible and distrust what comes to meet you when you truly open yourself to knowing Him.

Maybe you should post your reasoning for Christians believing in the infallibility theory over in the thread where I ask for such a reason.
https://atheistforums.org/thread-13936.html

(August 2, 2012 at 5:24 pm)catfish Wrote: The strawmen abound in your OP.

1. Christians should really stop looking to the bible as a contract of what they can expect from God.
2. How can you say you have faith in the nearness of God if what you really mean is you have faith that the words written in the bible are true?
3. You have no confidence in anything you experience in your relationship with God that even comes close to your belief in the words written in that book.
4. By clinging to 'the word', Christians miss the 'thing' itself, whatever that may be.
5. That is part of the self-fulfilling prophesy. Once you decide what to believe before you even invite God to reveal Himself to you, you've already decided what beliefs to reinforce in your imagination.
6. Surely you don't think it is the place of humans to direct the will of God? But, in effect, that is what you do when you insist on the infallibility of the bible and distrust what comes to meet you when you truly open yourself to knowing Him.

Maybe you should post your reasoning for Christians believing in the infallibility theory over in the thread where I ask for such a reason.
https://atheistforums.org/thread-13936.html

You haven't convinced me any of them are strawmen. I don't think I understand what you are asking me to do. Post my reasoning for Chrisitans believing in the infallibility of .. the bible? I have no reasoning for Christians and so far as I can tell they have very little for themselves.

My observation is that belief is insistence on assumptions whereas faith is an openness to what is true. Christians have no faith in God, just the beliefs the bible prescribes.

I haven't read much of the bible and found what little I got through too tedious for words. Drivel.

7. Christians have no faith in God, just the beliefs the bible prescribes.

(August 2, 2012 at 12:44 am)whateverist Wrote: I was writing a review for the book "The Wisdom of Insecurity" by Alan Watts on fb today. That was an influential book for me back at a time when I liked a lot of woo. Seriously, while Watts tends to over-reach at times he also makes some good points, I still think.

Here are a couple quotes about belief in God and how that is in opposition to faith.

Quote #1: “If we cling to belief in God, we cannot likewise have faith, since faith is not clinging but letting go.”

Quote #2: “For we have never actually understood the revolutionary sense beneath them [the words*] – the incredible truth that what religion calls the vision of God is found in giving up any belief in the idea of God.”

*My insertion.

Essentially Watts thinks we are in flight from uncertainty and that leads to many compromises and poor choices all in hopes of attaining certainty .. which is and always will be elusive anyway. Whatever glimpse of God may be possible and what that could even mean is something which no one will ever know who will not open his eyes to see but clings instead to belief. By clinging to 'the word', Christians miss the 'thing' itself, whatever that may be.

I wonder if we have any Christians on board who would like to explain to me how faith, which is synonymous with trust, is compatible with dogma. How can you say you have faith in the nearness of God if what you really mean is you have faith that the words written in the bible are true? Isn't your 'faith' in God really secondary to your belief in what that book says about God? You have no confidence in anything you experience in your relationship with God that even comes close to your belief in the words written in that book. You read those words into what you experience almost as a kind of self hypnosis. If God exists and really wants a relationship with you but the words written in that book are all you are willing to see, aren't you risking a lot?

[Hopefully it is clear why citing the bible would be an evasion of my question. The bible can't be the reason why you choose the bible over God. Either you have faith to open yourself to whatever God is and however He chooses to make Himself known to you, or you have your assumptions (ie, beliefs) from the bible.]

It seems you have a different understanding of Faith than what God expects or provides for. God tells us: Faith is what makes real the things we hope for. It is proof of what we cannot see. God was pleased with the people who lived a long time ago because they had faith like this.

For God and his followers 'faith' is an extention evidence based belief. Hokem writters that cater to those who wish to try and phiosophically seperate themselves from God, have changed the meaning of the word faith to mean: an intense baseless hope. Which is not what God offers, nor is the faith God offers limited to the reading of the bible. God offers exactly what an indivisual needs to sustain biblically based faith, and if one is faithful to what he has been given. He will be given more. If not what he has been given will be taken from him and given to someone else.

(August 2, 2012 at 6:02 pm)catfish Wrote: 7. Christians have no faith in God, just the beliefs the bible prescribes.

So Christians only have faith in God because they have decided to believe what the bible tells them. If you don't like my saying Christians have no faith in God, let me rephrase that to say that their faith in God is secondary to their faith in the bible. Faith in God is owing to your faith in what the bible tells you and prepares you to interpret your experience accordingly.

So what is it that gives you so much faith in the bible? Doesn't it just come down to the indoctrination you received to regard it that way? Had you been born into a Jewish home or a Muslim one surely you would have adopted their holy books and dutifully come to have believed what they believe just as fervently. How can you possibly think that anyone would turn their backs on their own beliefs to embrace your own?

(August 3, 2012 at 12:20 am)whateverist Wrote: So Christians only have faith in God because they have decided to believe what the bible tells them. If you don't like my saying Christians have no faith in God, let me rephrase that to say that their faith in God is secondary to their faith in the bible. Faith in God is owing to your faith in what the bible tells you and prepares you to interpret your experience accordingly.

So what is it that gives you so much faith in the bible? Doesn't it just come down to the indoctrination you received to regard it that way? Had you been born into a Jewish home or a Muslim one surely you would have adopted their holy books and dutifully come to have believed what they believe just as fervently. How can you possibly think that anyone would turn their backs on their own beliefs to embrace your own?

That's how you approach every fact in life. You decide to believe. Why do you think a given article in the newspaper is true? You have reasons. The same goes for the Bible. Millions of people convert to Christianity every year. They had no prior 'indoctrination'. They had reasons for trusting the Bible. It's true that people can enter other religions that way, but don't turn this discussion into a study of human behavior. Examine the Book (the link between us and God), not people.

edit: check this video out- http://vimeo.com/8504251

8. So Christians only have faith in God because they have decided to believe what the bible tells them.