Quote:Spock's rather odd derailment of the thread aside, we're in agreement that no one is recorded as having wrote about Jesus during his lifetime, right?

What choice does he have? The whole point of apologetics is to make excuses for their fucking miserable excuse for a "god."

(August 4, 2012 at 7:49 am)Gambit Wrote: I'm sure this has been done before but I searched and couldn't find it. The following question is more than just a subject for debate to me, and I'm sure if you think about it the same applies to many of you. The whole Christian religion relies on the existence of Jesus. My ex (For the 50th time) is trying to keep me out of our unborn child's life because she believes in the existence of Jesus and his divinity, however, I have serious doubts. I'm sure many of you have found yourselves in similar scenarios where you have been judged as evil, immoral etc., whether it be with family, friends or work colleagues. We don't even have to be "disrespectful" of their beliefs either, we simply have to assert that we do not hold those beliefs.

So here is my question: Can anyone provide me with examples of people/writings that referenced Jesus, during his lifetime? Any priests, philosophers, leaders, scribes, will do.

My research so far suggests that not a single mention of Jesus was made during his lifetime. Now, the sources I have looked at so far all argue that Jesus did not exist. They state that all of the references after the supposed crucifixion are hearsay at best and complete forgeries at worst. What I want to read is a completely unbiased source that can actually back up its claims, and provide references to the exact writings so that I can read them in context. Who's up to the challenge?

I accept that the absence of such writings does not prove that Jesus did not exist, however, it would certainly ring alarm bells for me.

You do know that less than an estimated 3% of the population durning the time of Christ could read or write. Of that three percent in christ's soceity 98% of the literates belonged to the priestly tribes. (meaning they were scribes and preists who were not allowed to write or rather record 'new material' only what was then known as scripture. Not that any of them would want to.) The other 2% belong to Rome, and as such would have had very little intrest in anything not directly effecting roman affairs.
http://faculty.biu.ac.il/~barilm/illitera.html

The first century was not a time in which things were written down for the sake of doing so. writting materials were extremely expensive and perserving those writtings was also very costly, and it was something to be considered. for even if a wealthy literate man did decide to write everything down, that writting would have need to be cared for in a scriptorium. for what they wrote with and on (papirious or parchemnt) would not have lasted very long in someone home exposed to sunlight and the open air.

It wasn't till the church had been established could it afford to record and care for what was recorded. Meaning nothing would have been perserved if it was written durning the life of Christ, because only the Jews had access to everything that was needed to record and perserve a text outside of scriptoriums of rome.

The simple fact is reading and writting means very little to a soceity who does not have the materials for people to read or write on.

(August 5, 2012 at 1:53 am)Drich Wrote:

(August 4, 2012 at 7:49 am)Gambit Wrote: I'm sure this has been done before but I searched and couldn't find it. The following question is more than just a subject for debate to me, and I'm sure if you think about it the same applies to many of you. The whole Christian religion relies on the existence of Jesus. My ex (For the 50th time) is trying to keep me out of our unborn child's life because she believes in the existence of Jesus and his divinity, however, I have serious doubts. I'm sure many of you have found yourselves in similar scenarios where you have been judged as evil, immoral etc., whether it be with family, friends or work colleagues. We don't even have to be "disrespectful" of their beliefs either, we simply have to assert that we do not hold those beliefs.

So here is my question: Can anyone provide me with examples of people/writings that referenced Jesus, during his lifetime? Any priests, philosophers, leaders, scribes, will do.

My research so far suggests that not a single mention of Jesus was made during his lifetime. Now, the sources I have looked at so far all argue that Jesus did not exist. They state that all of the references after the supposed crucifixion are hearsay at best and complete forgeries at worst. What I want to read is a completely unbiased source that can actually back up its claims, and provide references to the exact writings so that I can read them in context. Who's up to the challenge?

I accept that the absence of such writings does not prove that Jesus did not exist, however, it would certainly ring alarm bells for me.

You do know that less than an estimated 3% of the population durning the time of Christ could read or write. Of that three percent in christ's soceity 98% of the literates belonged to the priestly tribes. (meaning they were scribes and preists who were not allowed to write or rather record 'new material' only what was then known as scripture. Not that any of them would want to.) The other 2% belong to Rome, and as such would have had very little intrest in anything not directly effecting roman affairs.
http://faculty.biu.ac.il/~barilm/illitera.html

The first century was not a time in which things were written down for the sake of doing so. writting materials were extremely expensive and perserving those writtings was also very costly, and it was something to be considered. for even if a wealthy literate man did decide to write everything down, that writting would have need to be cared for in a scriptorium. for what they wrote with and on (papirious or parchemnt) would not have lasted very long in someone home exposed to sunlight and the open air.

It wasn't till the church had been established could it afford to record and care for what was recorded. Meaning nothing would have been perserved if it was written durning the life of Christ, because only the Jews had access to everything that was needed to record and perserve a text outside of scriptoriums of rome.

The simple fact is reading and writting means very little to a soceity who does not have the materials for people to read or write on.

There were most certainly people 'qualified' enough to have written what they wished about Jesus and be able to preserve it.

Justus of Tiberias: Jewish historian who lived in Galilee during the 1st century and wrote two preserved works, a history of the Jewish War of 66-70 and a chronicle of the Jewish people from Moses to the death of Agrippa II in 100 CE, covering the period in which Jesus supposedly lived. (Justus may have lived slightly after the supposed death of Jesus)

Philo of Alexandria: Jewish historian, philosopher, theologian, and community leader who lived from 20 BCE to 50 CE in Alexandria Egypt, but reported on events throughout the Mediterranean world. He specifically wrote about conflicts between Pontius Pilate and Jews during Pilate's governorship of Judea.

Pliny the Elder: Roman historian and philosopher who lived from 23-79 CE. He traveled throughout the Roman Empire, though mostly in the northern regions. Most of his works, over 200 manuscripts, are preserved.

Seneca the Younger: Roman philosopher and statesman who lived from 3 BCE to 65 CE. He traveled throughout the Roman Empire and was the private tutor of Nero. His brother Gallio heard charges brought by Jews against the apostle Paul, but he dismissed the charges. Many of the works of Seneca survive, including over 100 letters on morality.

Valerius Maximus: Roman writer who lived from 20 BCE to 50 CE, who traveled to various places in the Roman Empire, including eastern portions of the empire. He wrote a popular series of books on memorable sayings and deeds collected from throughout the empire in 30 CE.

Velleius Paterculus: Roman military officer and historian who lived from 20 BCE to 31 CE. He served in the military in the eastern portions of the empire and wrote a surviving work, Compendium of Roman History, which covers history up through 14 CE. Other materials survive as well. His Compendium of Roman History actually spends a lot of time discussing non-Romans as well.

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articl...tory.htm#8

In conclusion, if something did happen concerning someone by the name of Jesus these guys were more than capable of telling us.

Quote:You do know that less than an estimated 3% of the population durning the time of Christ could read or write.

Probably pretty close to accurate and not worth quibbling about. (There are degrees of literacy....Roman legionaires were taught to read and write but few could have handled the dialogues of Plato...but they could read the duty roster for cleaning the legionary latrine.)

The problem is that we are speaking of the people who COULD read and write and did so fairly well. Yet no Greco-Roman or Jewish author bothers to mention even an outlandish story involving your boy. Not one.

At this point xtians usually try the old "Judaea was an outpost of the empire" routine which was certainly no longer true after Herod the Great built the port of Caesarea. No. Judaea was part of the empire and more importantly it was sitting on major commercial routes. Ideas...not just merchandise...flow along those routes. Still, NOT ONE REFERENCE TO A DEAD JEW COMING BACK TO LIFE.

In the second century, Lucian writes of xtians in The Passing of Peregrinus, c 165 and Celsus writes, On the True Doctrine c 170. So, we see that after xtians did begin to spread that Greco-Roman writers did mention them and comment on what they considered their barbaric doctrines.

But not in the first century. Not even once.

Following on from Minimalist, if you wish you can accept that in actual fact the 'events' of Jesus were recorded but not how you would like to hear them:

as I [Joseph Bar Mathias] came back, I saw many captives crucified; and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance. I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician’s hands, while the third recovered.

http://carrington-arts.com/cliff/JOEGOS4.htm

(August 5, 2012 at 1:53 am)Drich Wrote: You do know that less than an estimated 3% of the population durning the time of Christ could read or write. Of that three percent in christ's soceity 98% of the literates belonged to the priestly tribes. (meaning they were scribes and preists who were not allowed to write or rather record 'new material' only what was then known as scripture. Not that any of them would want to.) The other 2% belong to Rome, and as such would have had very little intrest in anything not directly effecting roman affairs.
http://faculty.biu.ac.il/~barilm/illitera.html

The first century was not a time in which things were written down for the sake of doing so. writting materials were extremely expensive and perserving those writtings was also very costly, and it was something to be considered. for even if a wealthy literate man did decide to write everything down, that writting would have need to be cared for in a scriptorium. for what they wrote with and on (papirious or parchemnt) would not have lasted very long in someone home exposed to sunlight and the open air.

It wasn't till the church had been established could it afford to record and care for what was recorded. Meaning nothing would have been perserved if it was written durning the life of Christ, because only the Jews had access to everything that was needed to record and perserve a text outside of scriptoriums of rome.

The simple fact is reading and writting means very little to a soceity who does not have the materials for people to read or write on.

Seems to me that the creator of the universe could overcome something as trivial as a dearth of writing materials. Also, the Romans and Chinese, who apparently were hogging writing materials, were at the same time making use of such a precious resource by meticulously recording provincial accounting.

Your argument amounts to this: my intellectual ancestors were fuck all stupid so they didn't need to write anything down.

(August 4, 2012 at 5:56 pm)Gambit Wrote: Spock's rather odd derailment of the thread aside, we're in agreement that no one is recorded as having wrote about Jesus during his lifetime, right?

No known evidence of such, yes.

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(August 4, 2012 at 7:46 pm)padraic Wrote:

(August 4, 2012 at 5:56 pm)Gambit Wrote: Spock's rather odd derailment of the thread aside, we're in agreement that no one is recorded as having wrote about Jesus during his lifetime, right?

Indeed,but don't take our word,nor the that of an ignoramus apologist like Spock. ...

Ignoramus is Latin for the Greek agnostic. I would not say I'm agnostic, though I might become persuaded to be.

(August 5, 2012 at 5:52 am)spockrates Wrote:

(August 4, 2012 at 5:56 pm)Gambit Wrote: Spock's rather odd derailment of the thread aside, we're in agreement that no one is recorded as having wrote about Jesus during his lifetime, right?

No known evidence of such, yes.

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Excellent, so when we do have said evidence we will re-examine the case.

Until then, one can only conclude that the biblical jesus was unlikely to have existed.

Is it normal to draw conclusions without evidence?

The Null Hypothesis