Listen Drich, I have let you prattle on for quite some time in your assuredness that your intelligence is vastly superior to my own. However, this is my thread and now you're playing by my rules. Proof or GTFU; it's as simple as that. God has not provided any proof what-so-ever, and neither have you even come close to guiding me towards that supposed proof. In fact, as Christians go, you've driven me further away from ever accepting God than anyone I've ever met.

I broached the subject at hand and you couldn't offer anything better than "Derp, there were only six people who could write, herp derp." Every single fucking thing you say relies on there being no evidence for your conclusion. Sure, you use some impressive acrobatics to get to that point but, Jesus fucking christ, do you ever fall at the last hurdle.

Quote:It's not for Christians to provide proof of God.

Um... yes it is, Drippy. And not just any god. The coming-back-from-the-dead, water-into-wine, feeding-the-multitude, born-of-a-virgin con man that you insist is real.

The burden of proof is yours. You have shown no evidence for any of your shit.

(August 6, 2012 at 1:27 am)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:It's not for Christians to provide proof of God.

Um... yes it is, Drippy. And not just any god. The coming-back-from-the-dead, water-into-wine, feeding-the-multitude, born-of-a-virgin con man that you insist is real.

The burden of proof is yours. You have shown no evidence for any of your shit.

The poor guy really is a complete maroon ain't he; hasn't got a clue. It's the children I pity,the poor little buggers.

Ah - fuck 'em. The children will just grow up to be big ones.

(August 4, 2012 at 7:49 am)Gambit Wrote: So here is my question: Can anyone provide me with examples of people/writings that referenced Jesus, during his lifetime? Any priests, philosophers, leaders, scribes, will do.

Let me get this straight. You are looking for records of Christian existence from during Jesus' life because you believe all (several dozen) 1st-2nd century records are bogus and part of a mass conspiracy to invent this "Jesus Christ" character?

Okay, Jesus started his ministry three years before he died. How many documents can we date exactly between 30-33AD? None. Those close are either ambiguous or non-historic.

Let's step out of the three year opening you've given us. Are there writings following soon after Jesus' death? We have reason to believe there were. Though all copies in this time period are questionably later than their original manuscript, we can pinpoint the original date written using our knowledge of how circulation works. We have quotes and cross-references between the Paul's epistles (before 62AD) and 1 Peter, as well as Clement. In order for one writer to have known of the others' writings, the manuscript had to already be in circulation. That implies many manuscripts by 90AD, but we only have a few of any 1st century manuscript. Therefore we can conclude that most NT manuscripts have never been found, and that some probably date back close to the time of Christ (they had to reach Rome by 70AD). An extant copy 30 years after the fact is good compared to other biographies, even of famous men like Caesar (900AD is his copy) or Tacitus (1,100AD) or Suetonius (950AD) or Pliny (850AD), all allegedly written around the time of Christ, all Greek and Roman historians with copies 780+ years behind Mark, Matthew and Acts. [ http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/bib-qur/bibmanu.htm ]

Do you trust any of those four historians?

(August 6, 2012 at 2:28 am)Undeceived Wrote:

(August 4, 2012 at 7:49 am)Gambit Wrote: So here is my question: Can anyone provide me with examples of people/writings that referenced Jesus, during his lifetime? Any priests, philosophers, leaders, scribes, will do.

Let me get this straight. You are looking for records of Christian existence from during Jesus' life because you believe all (several dozen) 1st-2nd century records are bogus and part of a mass conspiracy to invent this "Jesus Christ" character?
Okay, Jesus started his ministry three years before he died. How many documents can we date exactly between 30-33AD? None. Those close are either ambiguous or non-historic.
Though all copies in this time period are questionably later than their original manuscript, we can pinpoint the original date written using our knowledge of how circulation works. We have quotes and cross-references between the Paul's epistles and 1 Peter, as well as Clement. In order for one writer to have known of the others' writings, the manuscript had to already be in circulation. That implies many manuscripts by 90AD, but we only have a few of any 1st century manuscript. Therefore we can conclude that most NT manuscripts have never been found, and that they probably date back close to the time of Christ (they had to reach Rome by 70AD). An extant copy 30 years after the fact is good compared to other biographies, even of famous men like Caesar (900AD is his copy) or Tacitus (1,100AD) or Suetonius (950AD) or Pliny (850AD), all allegedly written around the time of Christ, all Greek and Roman historians with copies 780+ years behind Mark, Matthew and Acts. [ http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/bib-qur/bibmanu.htm ]

Do you trust any of those four historians?

First point me to where I said the part in bold and then we'll continue.

As for the rest of your post, prove that any of that is true; and yet again, we will continue.

(August 6, 2012 at 2:34 am)Gambit Wrote:

(August 6, 2012 at 2:28 am)Undeceived Wrote: Let me get this straight. You are looking for records of Christian existence from during Jesus' life because you believe all (several dozen) 1st-2nd century records are bogus and part of a mass conspiracy to invent this "Jesus Christ" character?
Okay, Jesus started his ministry three years before he died. How many documents can we date exactly between 30-33AD? None. Those close are either ambiguous or non-historic.
Though all copies in this time period are questionably later than their original manuscript, we can pinpoint the original date written using our knowledge of how circulation works. We have quotes and cross-references between the Paul's epistles and 1 Peter, as well as Clement. In order for one writer to have known of the others' writings, the manuscript had to already be in circulation. That implies many manuscripts by 90AD, but we only have a few of any 1st century manuscript. Therefore we can conclude that most NT manuscripts have never been found, and that they probably date back close to the time of Christ (they had to reach Rome by 70AD). An extant copy 30 years after the fact is good compared to other biographies, even of famous men like Caesar (900AD is his copy) or Tacitus (1,100AD) or Suetonius (950AD) or Pliny (850AD), all allegedly written around the time of Christ, all Greek and Roman historians with copies 780+ years behind Mark, Matthew and Acts. [ http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/bib-qur/bibmanu.htm ]

Do you trust any of those four historians?

First point me to where I said the part in bold and then we'll continue.

As for the rest of your post, prove that any of that is true; and yet again, we will continue.

I never stated you "said" it. I asked if that's what you are looking for, and your beliefs behind your search. If I interpreted wrong please correct me.

Yes, you interpreted it wrong. My OP was quite clear. I am asking for writings from the time of Christ about Christ. However, the discussion seems to have evolved since then. We are now on the credibility of evidence in the face of no evidence. Further, we seem to have arrived at who carries the burden of proof - theist or atheist.

It's easy to shoulder a burden when the bag is empty, as such the reluctance of the pro-god camp to carry air is beyond me.

Looks like when Paul said his gospel came from no man he wasn't kidding.