(August 4, 2012 at 1:44 pm)Napoleon Wrote: I don't care what you call it, if it's described in the bible like you reckon it is then post away.

Like I said ^, if you are sure it's in there, described and all that. I'd like to see it. Doesn't necessarily have to be named 'purgatory'. That's why I said 'holy trinity' doesn't matter either, because it is still described quite fully, despite not being given the term holy trinity.

If you think the same can be said for purgatory go for it.

(August 5, 2012 at 9:15 am)Rhythm Wrote: Protestants would dispute that.

Agreed! I disputed it as a Protestant.

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(August 5, 2012 at 9:16 am)Napoleon Wrote:

(August 4, 2012 at 1:44 pm)Napoleon Wrote: I don't care what you call it, if it's described in the bible like you reckon it is then post away.

Like I said ^, if you are sure it's in there, described and all that. I'd like to see it. Doesn't necessarily have to be named 'purgatory'. That's why I said 'holy trinity' doesn't matter either, because it is still described quite fully, despite not being given the term holy trinity.

If you think the same can be said for purgatory go for it.

Yes, sorry I misunderstood you. One moment.

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18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago ...

(1 Peter 3)

My thought: Heaven is nowhere described as a prison. Hell is described as a place, or state of existence where God is not present. The Bible claims Jesus is God. I'm thinking this place, or state of existence where Jesus went cannot be either heaven, or hell. What do you think, hypothetically speaking, of course.

(August 2, 2012 at 11:45 pm)Cinjin Wrote: I can't speak for anyone but myself and only a fool would ask such a question and expect a legitimate answer. Are you a christard? I was addressing the christards ... as we have many here.

I asked you to estimate their response, not to give it yourself (i.e., to speak for them).

That strikes me as a bullshit dodge; are you embarrassed about the rate of bigotry among atheists-in-practice? Do you believe the rate of bigotry among atheists-in-practice is inscrutable?

Napoleon:

I have another biblical passage that teaches there is a destination ( or state of existence) after death that is neither heaven nor hell. Please let me know if you care to look at it.

(August 5, 2012 at 9:18 am)spockrates Wrote: My thought: Heaven is nowhere described as a prison. Hell is described as a place, or state of existence where God is not present. The Bible claims Jesus is God. I'm thinking this place, or state of existence where Jesus went cannot be either heaven, or hell. What do you think, hypothetically speaking, of course.

I honestly don't see how this justifies putting faith in an entire belief of purgatory.

Seems pretty ridiculous.

At best, it hints that jesus went somewhere. Where exactly? It's not stated, it's referred to as 'prison'. Well that could really be anything, it could be a physical prison, it could be hell, it could even be another term for this earth.

How anyone can take this verse, and construe it so that it forms this very specific idea of purgatory is beyond me.

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Oh, and do carry on, I'm sure the next verse will be more specific

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(August 7, 2012 at 2:45 am)CliveStaples Wrote: I asked you to estimate their response, not to give it yourself (i.e., to speak for them).

That strikes me as a bullshit dodge; are you embarrassed about the rate of bigotry among atheists-in-practice? Do you believe the rate of bigotry among atheists-in-practice is inscrutable?

Do you have anything to provide with regards to the OP? Or are you intent on turning this into a pissing contest?

(August 7, 2012 at 6:58 am)Napoleon Wrote:

(August 5, 2012 at 9:18 am)spockrates Wrote: My thought: Heaven is nowhere described as a prison. Hell is described as a place, or state of existence where God is not present. The Bible claims Jesus is God. I'm thinking this place, or state of existence where Jesus went cannot be either heaven, or hell. What do you think, hypothetically speaking, of course.

I honestly don't see how this justifies putting faith in an entire belief of purgatory.

Seems pretty ridiculous.

At best, it hints that jesus went somewhere. Where exactly? It's not stated, it's referred to as 'prison'. Well that could really be anything, it could be a physical prison, it could be hell, it could even be another term for this earth.

How anyone can take this verse, and construe it so that it forms this very specific idea of purgatory is beyond me.

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Oh, and do carry on, I'm sure the next verse will be more specific

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Agreed, Peter does not specifically mention Purgatory by name. However, he does appear to make it clear that he is not speaking about heaven, or hell. Can one make a good case that Peter was writing about heaven? I'm guessing no. For heaven is not portrayed as a prison. Can one make a strong case that he was writing of hell? I'm supposing one cannot. For hell is defined as an eternal separation from God. Were God to visit hell, wouldn't hell cease to be what it is? The upshot: There is something other than heaven, or hell after death, the Bible teaches.

I should repeat that I'm not trying to prove Purgatory's existence; just trying to show why some believe the Bible supports the notion. Also, I should say again that I agree the word Purgatory does not appear in the Bible, but neither do other words the concepts of which are clearly taught. The word incarnation, for example is nowhere found is scripture, but the doctrine that Christ was God incarnate is clearly taught.

But sorry for taking so long. I promised another biblical passage...

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You are probably already aware of this one. Protestants and Catholics alike use it to support their ideas of what hell is like. The greedy, uncaring man was in hell.

But ask a Protestant where Abraham was. She might say he was in Abraham's bosom, if she is familiar with the King James version. But Abraham's bosom simply means next to Abraham, so it does not answer the question. Ask her if Abraham was in heaven, and she will likely assert that no one but God and his angels was heaven prior to Christ's death and resurrection.

So even the Protestant will admit the Bible teaches there is (or was) a place (or state of existence) after death other than heaven, or hell, I think. Please tell me what you think, Napoleon.

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

(Luke 16)

(August 7, 2012 at 8:56 am)spockrates Wrote: Please tell me what you think, Napoleon.

Just sounds like a story about a poor guy going to heaven and a rich guy going to hell.

Really don't see any mention of any place at all. So where you think Lazarus and Abraham are, is really just conjecture.

I would simply assume heaven.

You can do all the mental gymnastics you want to try and justify it, but there is nowhere near enough material in those verses to justify the concept of purgatory. (Yeah, I know that's not what your saying, but I'm just saying stating what I think)

If purgatory was meant to be a real christian teaching, then I'd expect more of a description of it, in fact, there really is no description of it at all in the versed you quote.

(August 7, 2012 at 3:43 pm)Napoleon Wrote:

(August 7, 2012 at 8:56 am)spockrates Wrote: Please tell me what you think, Napoleon.

Just sounds like a story about a poor guy going to heaven and a rich guy going to hell.

Really don't see any mention of any place at all. So where you think Lazarus and Abraham are, is really just conjecture.

I would simply assume heaven.

You can do all the mental gymnastics you want to try and justify it, but there is nowhere near enough material in those verses to justify the concept of purgatory. (Yeah, I know that's not what your saying, but I'm just saying stating what I think)

If purgatory was meant to be a real christian teaching, then I'd expect more of a description of it, in fact, there really is no description of it at all in the versed you quote.

Yes, but many Protestant Christians would disagree with you. No one entered heaven prior to Christ's resurrection, they say. A Baptist pastor went so far as to tell me that Abraham, David and other OT patriarchs must be in hell, for they died before Christ rose from the dead!

One passage they cite for their belief:

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

(1 Corinthians 15:20)

Other Protestant Christians say the patriarchs put faith in a future resurrection of Christ, and so were saved from hell, but also admit these patriarchs did not enter heaven until after Christ was raised. Where did they go, if not to heaven?

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Still, Catholics do believe there are specific descriptions of Purgatory in the New Testament--although they admit Protestant Christians disagree with their interpretations of the passages. The scriptures they cite:

Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

(Hebrews 12:14)

Without holiness no one will see God in heaven, and most die unholy and not saints, Catholics say.

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

--Jesus (Matthew 5:48)

Even Jesus commands us to be perfect, but few are able to achieve such moral perfection this side of Purgatory, or heaven, Catholics say.

11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

(1 Corinthians 3)

After death, the deeds of the unholy will be tested and refined (or made perfect) in Purgatory, they say. And they believe other passages describe Purgatory, and the necessity of it, as well.

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For me, personally, one difficulty I had when I was a Fundamentalist Baptist, and later an Evangelical, was with the idea of heaven, hell and nothing else after death.

"What about good people who just happen to be atheists?" I asked my teachers. "Would it be just for God to condemn them to hell simply because they didn't have enough information to believe?" The answer they gave that everyone deserved hell and we were just blessed enough to find the truth that saved us did not satisfy me, as it did not agree with my concept of what a good and merciful and just God should be. Nor did it agree with my understanding of some scriptures, such as this one:

Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains."

(John 9:41)

Why should those who don't see that they are wrong to not believe be culpable for their ignorance? (I'm speaking from my own Christian perspective, of course, and not saying you are ignorant. I might be self-deceived, and so the ignorant one! My personal perspective is also not yet a Catholic one, for I don't yet consider myself to be Catholic, even though I see some good reasons for some of what they believe.)

(August 8, 2012 at 9:39 am)spockrates Wrote: Why should those who don't see that they are wrong to not believe be culpable for their ignorance? (I'm speaking from my own Christian perspective, of course.)

Yeah, and I ask the same from an atheist perspective. Although, I wouldn't refer to it as ignorance on my part, quite the opposite. But still, essentially the question is the same.


As for the rest...

spock Wrote:Yes, but many Protestants would disagree with you.

I honestly couldn't give a flying fuck.

I really am not going down this road. For me, it's a pointless endeavour.

Seen as I don't take the bible as divinely inspired scripture like you do, these theological discussions don't really prove anything to me anyway. All they are to me, are an exercise of interpretation.

So what if protestants want to justify their crazy superstitions with their interpretations. I'm not going to get caught up arguing with it, it's already fucking crazy from my point of view for reasons stated above. So why do I actually care if they disagree with me? I disagree with them on an even deeper basis, that their book is fiction from the start.

Now obviously, I asked you for some verses which supposedly support the idea of purgatory (a concept which would relate to the OP). You've gave me them. I've told you I don't see how they justify the concept. That's really all I have to say.

I made the OP to see if christians could give any other scenarios, or justify the actions their god would take, and from the looks of it, the amount of mental gymnastics that has to be done in order to, just further makes up my mind that it's all total garbage anyway.