Quote:But guys, lets just look at the Mayan and Tzotzil Indian Muslims. They were all originally Muslims before Christians conquered and forced them to convert to Christianity.

Sami....you are really making yourself look foolish.

Stop believing everything some asshat with a sheet on his head tells you. Try a little critical thinking.

(August 15, 2012 at 1:14 pm)jonb Wrote: I as an artist might have a different perspective on that little number.

My stroke was a bit broad, wasn't it. I must concede the point regarding the influence of post-Ghazali Islamic art.

(August 15, 2012 at 3:09 pm)cato123 Wrote:

(August 15, 2012 at 1:14 pm)jonb Wrote: I as an artist might have a different perspective on that little number.

My stroke was a bit broad, wasn't it. I must concede the point regarding the influence of post-Ghazali Islamic art.

I do not pretend to know what post-Ghazali Islamic art, is, but yes your line was a bit broad. However the rarity of a poster admitting to too broad a stroke, places you in a rare elite, More power to your elbow, you a a fine example to us all.

Actually I was pointing to the invention of perspective by Islamic mathematicians, and Islamic maths in general, there is also that without Islamic scholars we would know so little about the Greeks, In fact a lot of things that we think of a western have their roots in Islam, and at the other end of the world Chinese pottery as we know it would be almost nothing without the Islamic potters who settled in china.

(August 15, 2012 at 3:30 pm)jonb Wrote:

(August 15, 2012 at 3:09 pm)cato123 Wrote: My stroke was a bit broad, wasn't it. I must concede the point regarding the influence of post-Ghazali Islamic art.

I do not pretend to know what post-Ghazali Islamic art, is, but yes your line was a bit broad. However the rarity of a poster admitting to too broad a stroke, places you in a rare elite, More power to your elbow, you a a fine example to us all.

Actually I was pointing to the invention of perspective by Islamic mathematicians, and Islamic maths in general, there is also that without Islamic scholars we would know so little about the Greeks, In fact a lot of things that we think of a western have their roots in Islam, and at the other end of the world Chinese pottery as we know it would be almost nothing without the Islamic potters who settled in china.

Al Ghazali was the 11th/12th century Muslim philosopher that rejected science in favor of faith. The subsequent adherence to his ideas brought an abrupt end to what is sometimes called the Islamic Golden Age and their cultural contribution to science; which, as you eluded to was significant before his brand of theology was accepted.

(August 15, 2012 at 12:40 pm)Sami_23 Wrote: But guys, lets just look at the Mayan and Tzotzil Indian Muslims. They were all originally Muslims before Christians conquered and forced them to convert to Christianity. Even now, there are converts and they say Islam truly rediscovered their indian values. Surely this means that Islam has a significant history in Indian roots.

I believe over 300 Tzotzil, Mayan have converted to Islam in Mexico. That's pretty impressive.

In a country of 112 million people, there are about 3,700 muslims in Mexico.

That's not that impressive:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Mexico
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latino_Muslims

Quote:The Spanish missionary Muhammad Nafia (formerly Aureliano Pérez), now emir of the Comunidad Islámica en México, arrived in the state of Chiapas shortly after the (1994) Zapatista uprising and established a commune in the city of San Cristóbal.

Quote:The Moors were the medieval Muslim inhabitants of the northernmost Mediterranean coast of North Africa, who invaded Hispania (modern-day Spain and Portugal) in the 8th century forming what became known as Al-Andalus. They were expelled by reconquering Catholics of the Peninsula in the 15th century through a process called Reconquista, after eight centuries of war.

(August 15, 2012 at 5:19 pm)cato123 Wrote: Al Ghazali was the 11th/12th century Muslim philosopher that rejected science in favor of faith. The subsequent adherence to his ideas brought an abrupt end to what is sometimes called the Islamic Golden Age and their cultural contribution to science; which, as you eluded to was significant before his brand of theology was accepted.

Thank you I knew about the change in Islamic culture, just from observation but I did not know about any of the individuals involved. Does that fit in with what I have been told that there was a reaction to the Mongol and crusader attacks, causing a return to fundamentalism.

(August 15, 2012 at 9:01 pm)jonb Wrote:

(August 15, 2012 at 5:19 pm)cato123 Wrote: Al Ghazali was the 11th/12th century Muslim philosopher that rejected science in favor of faith. The subsequent adherence to his ideas brought an abrupt end to what is sometimes called the Islamic Golden Age and their cultural contribution to science; which, as you eluded to was significant before his brand of theology was accepted.

Thank you I knew about the change in Islamic culture, just from observation but I did not know about any of the individuals involved. Does that fit in with what I have been told that there was a reaction to the Mongol and crusader attacks, causing a return to fundamentalism.

I thought it had more to do with the Mulims not allowing the printing press to reproduce the quran?

@cratehorus, I respectively disagree. In 2002, Latino muslims were only 40,000 but now they are 200,000. Huge increase. Also there is still Dawa work in Mexico which shows Islam is active in Mexico.

(August 15, 2012 at 9:01 pm)jonb Wrote: Thank you I knew about the change in Islamic culture, just from observation but I did not know about any of the individuals involved. Does that fit in with what I have been told that there was a reaction to the Mongol and crusader attacks, causing a return to fundamentalism.

Ghengis Khan came after Al Ghazali. The initial crusades commenced when Ghazali was writing so I would agree that they were a potential influence, but I have no proof.

I must vehemently disagree that Al Ghazali returned the observers of Islam to fundamentalism. Al Ghazali's theology gave birth to what we now call Islamic fundamentalism. Prior to Al Ghazali Arabs were at the forefront of scientific discovery; after, there is the sound of crickets. This does not mean that people born into the Muslim faith do not have the ability, only that demonstration of the ability will quickly result in castigation in favor of faith.

(August 15, 2012 at 10:16 pm)cato123 Wrote: Ghengis Khan came after Al Ghazali. The initial crusades commenced when Ghazali was writing so I would agree that they were a potential influence, but I have no proof.

I must vehemently disagree that Al Ghazali returned the observers of Islam to fundamentalism. Al Ghazali's theology gave birth to what we now call Islamic fundamentalism. Prior to Al Ghazali Arabs were at the forefront of scientific discovery; after, there is the sound of crickets. This does not mean that people born into the Muslim faith do not have the ability, only that demonstration of the ability will quickly result in castigation in favor of faith.

Thank you as always your astute mind is brilliantly informative.