(September 3, 2012 at 12:52 am)padraic Wrote:

Quote:Lock them all up. That's the only way to save the USA and the rest of the world.

That would be VERY expensive. A lot cheaper to just kill them,perhaps by purpose-built gassing facilities.

But I don't believe in killing madmen. It's too cruel. Lock them up but exhibit them as mad animals. Tourists will pay to see what they look like.

(September 2, 2012 at 10:40 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: There's plenty of evidence for the historicity of Jesus.
There's plenty of evidence that people who came into contact with Him actually believed they had seen miracles.

The atheist can try to argue those people were mistaken in what they saw but not... that there was never anything to see.

You assholes keep saying that. It's the "evidence" part that you're weak on.

(September 3, 2012 at 12:52 am)padraic Wrote:

Quote:Lock them all up. That's the only way to save the USA and the rest of the world.

That would be VERY expensive. A lot cheaper to just kill them,perhaps by purpose-built gassing facilities.

Hey, watch it now. You know creationist's sense of humor isn't as developed and sensitive as ours.

(September 3, 2012 at 2:11 am)Minimalist Wrote:

(September 2, 2012 at 10:40 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: There's plenty of evidence for the historicity of Jesus.
There's plenty of evidence that people who came into contact with Him actually believed they had seen miracles.

The atheist can try to argue those people were mistaken in what they saw but not... that there was never anything to see.

You assholes keep saying that. It's the "evidence" part that you're weak on.

It's the..."THATS NOT EVIDENCE" part which you guys have gotten down to an automatic on-cue reply.

Credible evidence
- Can't be anyone who thinks it's true. (Evangelical motive)
- Cant be anyone who corroborates the exact same story (collusion/plagiarism)
- Cant be anyone who tells a slightly different version (bible errancy)
- Cant be anonymous (Because Julian Assange publishes names and addresses for all his sources.)

(September 3, 2012 at 2:32 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote:

(September 3, 2012 at 12:52 am)padraic Wrote: That would be VERY expensive. A lot cheaper to just kill them,perhaps by purpose-built gassing facilities.

Hey, watch it now. You know creationist's sense of humor isn't as developed and sensitive as ours.

Just a wild guess; was I too subtle for grene?

Perhaps I should have added making them wear a cross on their clothing,burn all their books and their churches.

After all, we don't want people with whom we disagree running around willy nilly ,frightening the children.

No evidence for Jesus of Nazareth?
Gimme a break.
Christianity did not arise from NO evidence.

(September 3, 2012 at 2:51 am)Lion IRC Wrote:

(September 3, 2012 at 2:11 am)Minimalist Wrote: You assholes keep saying that. It's the "evidence" part that you're weak on.

It's the..."THATS NOT EVIDENCE" part which you guys have gotten down to an automatic on-cue reply.

Credible evidence
- Can't be anyone who thinks it's true. (Evangelical motive)
- Cant be anyone who corroborates the exact same story (collusion/plagiarism)
- Cant be anyone who tells a slightly different version (bible errancy)
- Cant be anonymous (Because Julian Assange publishes names and addresses for all his sources.)

Ahem. Here's a list a former forum member constructed in order to get across the gravity of the problem, namely, that Jesus was nowhere to be found in history.

Phil Wrote:These are the silent 40.

1. Josephus
2. Philo
3. Seneca
4. Pliny the Elder
5. Suetonius
6. Juvenal
7. Martial
8. Persius
9. Plutarch
10. Justus of Tiberias
11. Apollonius
12. Pliny the Younger
13. Tacitus
14. Quintilian
15. Lucanus
16. Epictetus
17. Silius Italicus
18. Statius
19. Ptolemy
20. Valerius Maximus
21. Arrian
22. Petronius
23. Dion Pruseus
24. Paterculus
25. Appian
26. Theon of Smyrna
27. Phlegon
28. Pomponius Mela
29. Quintius Curtius
30. Lucian
31. Pausanias
32. Valerius Flaccus
33. Florus Lucius
34. Favorinius
35. Phaedrus
36. Damis
37. Aulus Gellius
38. Columella
39. Dio Chrysostom
40. Appion of Alexandria

Suetonius and Pliny the Younger do mention Jesus (if they are authentic and not Christian interpolations) but fact is they are both much to late to distinguish between Christ and Christianity.

On Tacitus:

1. There are no quotes of this passage by any of the church fathers.
2. Tertullian was familar with all the writings of Tactius and if this passage existed it would have been cited as an answer to his arguments (Chapter 5 of Tertullian's Apology and Chapter 21 of the same).
3. In the beginning of the 3rd century Clement of Alexandria compiled a list of all references from Pagan writers to Jesus and Tactius is missing from it.
4. Origen in his arguments with Celsus would have referred to it had it existed.
5. Eusibius in the 4th century did the same as Clement of Alexandria and once again, no mention of Tactius.
6. The first quotation of it by a Christian writer was in the 15th century.
7. At the time of the quotation it was said only one copy of the Annals existed and it was made 600 years after Tactius died.
8. Conveniently, this single existing copy was in the possession of a Christian so insertion of a forged passage would have been extremely easy.
9. The story about the orgies of Nero do not read anything like the writing of Tactius.
10. This story is almost word for word in the writing of Sulpicus Severus who was a Christian in the 5th century but there were no references to Jesus.
11. Suetonius, a Roman historian, who condemned Nero heavily even tells us Nero took care not to sacrifice a human life, not even of a convicted criminal.
12. Tactius even claims at the time of the fire that Nero was not in Rome but in Antium.

These are just a few reasons that scholars see this passage from Annals as nothing to be reckoned with as it most probably is a forgery in the same vein as Josephus' Testimonium and at best it is nothing more than heresay.

On Josephus:

The Testimonium was not written by Josephus and there are many reasons in the text itself. One example is that in the text Jesus is called the messiah yet Josephus remained an observant Jew and never became a Christian therefore he could not have called Jesus the messiah. Secondly, there are 3 different manuscript of the Testimonium and as expected, the later manuscripts have more details than the earlier ones as if the story evolved with time. Third and EXTREMELY DAMNING is that there were no references to it nor was it even mentioned in any writing until the 4th century when Constantine appointed Eueibius official church historian (Eusebius is the suspected author of the Testimonium) Fourth and a final nail in the Testimonium's coffin is textual analysis of the text with Josephus known writing shows certain phrase and words that were not used by Josephus but were found in the writing of only one church historian by the name of Eusebius.

Jesus simply wasn't a part of human history.

Where and when was Silius Italicus born and how much of his life was spent in Palestine.

Oh and for a bonus point was he on the payrole of the Roman Emperor Nero who had something of a dislike of Christianity.

---

Silence - knowing when to keep your mouth shut - is helpful sometimes.



Did I hear someone say something about Mein Kampf being a joke?

(September 3, 2012 at 3:25 am)Lion IRC Wrote: Where and when was Silius Italicus born and how much of his life was spent in Palestine.

Oh and for a bonus point was he on the payrole of the Roman Emperor Nero who had something of a dislike of Christianity.

---

Silence is helpful sometimes.

Friend or foe, there's not one mention of Jesus. That's a fact you will have to accept sooner or later.

Quote:No evidence for Jesus of Nazareth?

Evidence? Plenty. CREDIBLE evidence and proof? No,none.

Nor, as it turns out,is there any credible evidence for the existence of even a village called Nazareth at that time. So far, archaeological evidence does not support claims of a first century village/town or city of Nazareth.

I do not assert that Jesus and/or Nazareth, did not exist historically, only that their existence has not yet been established further than 'possible', or a to a limited degree of probability.

However, I am confident that is most likely that the Jesus of the New Testament is myth,with little if any connection to any historical person.