(September 3, 2012 at 8:39 pm)Lion IRC Wrote:

(September 3, 2012 at 4:40 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: [quote='Atom' pid='331340' dateline='1346703410']
"As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome." Life of Claudius by Suetonius

This confirms the accuracy of Luke's account in Acts 18:2 "There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome."

(September 3, 2012 at 4:40 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: ...When did Jesus ever call an "instigation" and how did it get to Rome?...

And then he told them, "Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone. (Mark 16:15)

Excuse me sir, my study Bible tells me verses 9-20 were a later addition i.e. another bit of fabrication on the Jesus story. Care to explain?

(September 3, 2012 at 9:06 pm)Lion IRC Wrote:

(September 3, 2012 at 8:45 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: That isn't an authentic quote of Jesus.

Yes it is.

(September 3, 2012 at 8:45 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: He would have been saying that before the Gentile mission opened up. It's anachronistic.

Wut? It says...to everyone. Where do you think Paul got the idea?

(September 3, 2012 at 8:45 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: ...Remember when Paul or whoever had that vision about it being ok to eat unclean animals? That's when the Gentile mission started.

Nope. God so loved the WORLD - the whole world...right from the beginning. Anyone listening to Jesus' parable of the TWO brothers understands that the Father loves both the prodigal son and the righteous son - eternal Israel.

(September 3, 2012 at 8:45 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: ... After Jesus was supposed to have died. If Jesus really said that, why didn't Christians start preaching to gentiles immediately?

They did.
''Teacher,” said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.” Mark 9:38

(September 3, 2012 at 8:45 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: Why did it happen only years after Jesus died?

Thats not true.
Shortly after Pentecost...
"The apostles and the brothers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God.''
Acts 11:1

Ahem...

Quote:Chapter 10:
...
9About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”

14“Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”

15The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”

16This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

17While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon’s house was and stopped at the gate. 18They called out, asking if Simon who was known as Peter was staying there.

19While Peter was still thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Simon, threea men are looking for you. 20So get up and go downstairs. Do not hesitate to go with them, for I have sent them.”

21Peter went down and said to the men, “I’m the one you’re looking for. Why have you come?”

22The men replied, “We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to have you come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say.” 23Then Peter invited the men into the house to be his guests.

Peter at Cornelius{quoteright}s House

The next day Peter started out with them, and some of the brothers from Joppa went along. 24The following day he arrived in Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 25As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”

27Talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. 28He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. 29So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?”

30Cornelius answered: “Four days ago I was in my house praying at this hour, at three in the afternoon. Suddenly a man in shining clothes stood before me 31and said, ‘Cornelius, God has heard your prayer and remembered your gifts to the poor. 32Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He is a guest in the home of Simon the tanner, who lives by the sea.’ 33So I sent for you immediately, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us.”

34Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right. 36You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

39“We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree, 40but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tonguesb and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47“Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Chapter 11

The apostles and the brothers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. 2So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcised believers criticized him 3and said, “You went into the house of uncircumcised men and ate with them.”

4Peter began and explained everything to them precisely as it had happened: 5“I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision. I saw something like a large sheet being let down from heaven by its four corners, and it came down to where I was. 6I looked into it and saw four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, reptiles, and birds of the air. 7Then I heard a voice telling me, ‘Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.’

8“I replied, ‘Surely not, Lord! Nothing impure or unclean has ever entered my mouth.’

9“The voice spoke from heaven a second time, ‘Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.’ 10This happened three times, and then it was all pulled up to heaven again.

11“Right then three men who had been sent to me from Caesarea stopped at the house where I was staying. 12The Spirit told me to have no hesitation about going with them. These six brothers also went with me, and we entered the man’s house. 13He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. 14He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’

15“As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized witha water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?”

18When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”

Preaching unto Gentiles was a radical and controversial thing in the church. It took Peter's vision to legitimate it. If Jesus really said to preach unto the Gentiles, this controversy wouldn't have happened! Why wasn't Jesus' words about this matter quoted in legitimating it too?

(September 3, 2012 at 9:11 pm)FallentoReason Wrote:

(September 3, 2012 at 8:39 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: And then he told them, "Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone. (Mark 16:15)

Excuse me sir, my study Bible tells me verses 9-20 were a later addition i.e. another bit of fabrication on the Jesus story. Care to explain?

It's not an addition to what Jesus said.

If you dont like Mark 16:15 how about...

Matthew 28:19
''Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

No?

How about Luke 24:47?
''And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.''

Not good enough?

If you're gonna call them fabrications why bother to be selective?
Just put the historicity of Jesus and all His words into the same atheist trash can of disbelief along with the entire bible - thats where ALL theism belongs right?

Why bother about the historicity of Jesus when you're simply going to dismiss Him as lunatic or liar rather than Lord?

(September 3, 2012 at 9:46 pm)Lion IRC Wrote:

(September 3, 2012 at 9:11 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: Excuse me sir, my study Bible tells me verses 9-20 were a later addition i.e. another bit of fabrication on the Jesus story. Care to explain?

It's not an addition to what Jesus said.

If you dont like Mark 16:15 how about...

Matthew 28:19
''Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

No?

How about Luke 24:47?
''And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.''

Not good enough?

If you're gonna call them fabrications why bother to be selective?
Just put the historicity of Jesus and all His words into the same atheist trash can of disbelief along with the entire bible - thats where ALL theism belongs right?

Why bother about the historicity of Jesus when you're simply going to dismiss Him as lunatic or liar rather than Lord?

Mark predates the Gospels that later used it as a starting point. Matthew and Luke are out of the question on this one.

Look, you can't keep using this poor argument of people dying for something and knowing it was a lie. It's rubbish because Paul only ever saw some vague light and he decided to die for that. Early Christians didn't need some human guy for them to die for their beliefs. You're just being fallacious by asking a loaded question.

(September 3, 2012 at 9:46 pm)Lion IRC Wrote:

(September 3, 2012 at 9:11 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: Excuse me sir, my study Bible tells me verses 9-20 were a later addition i.e. another bit of fabrication on the Jesus story. Care to explain?

It's not an addition to what Jesus said.

If you dont like Mark 16:15 how about...

Matthew 28:19
''Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

No?

How about Luke 24:47?
''And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.''

Not good enough?

If you're gonna call them fabrications why bother to be selective?
Just put the historicity of Jesus and all His words into the same atheist trash can of disbelief along with the entire bible - thats where ALL theism belongs right?

Why bother about the historicity of Jesus when you're simply going to dismiss Him as lunatic or liar rather than Lord?

Matthew and Luke were based on Mark and the source known as "Q." They're not independent accounts. That's why you see Jesus saying some of the same stuff in different gospels. This is a fairly uncontroversial theory about how the gospels came about that even many fundamentalist scholars now accept. I have never seen any serious counter arguments that weren't just faith based objections against the theory to maintain the old "independent eye witness" account idea.

(September 3, 2012 at 8:39 pm)Lion IRC Wrote:

(September 3, 2012 at 4:40 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: [quote='Atom' pid='331340' dateline='1346703410']
"As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome." Life of Claudius by Suetonius

This confirms the accuracy of Luke's account in Acts 18:2 "There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome."

(September 3, 2012 at 4:40 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: ...When did Jesus ever call an "instigation" and how did it get to Rome?...

And then he told them, "Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone. (Mark 16:15)

Don't attribute things that were not said in argument. Nobody argued that Jesus called an instigation at Rome. That idea came from the atheists on this thread.

(September 3, 2012 at 9:55 pm)Atom Wrote:

(September 3, 2012 at 8:39 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: And then he told them, "Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone. (Mark 16:15)

Don't attribute things that were not said in argument. Nobody argued that Jesus called an instigation at Rome. That idea came from the atheists on this thread.

I replied to you before on this. Go back a few pages and read it.

(September 3, 2012 at 9:21 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: ...Preaching unto Gentiles was a radical and controversial thing in the church. It took Peter's vision to legitimate it...

A few pages ago you were saying that preaching to the Gentiles was started by PAUL!

(September 3, 2012 at 8:45 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: Remember when Paul or whoever had that vision about it being ok to eat unclean animals? That's when the Gentile mission started.

Neither Peter nor Paul were confused about Jesus' explicit invocation (instigation) to preach The Kingdom to EVERYONE....(who was willing to listen.)

And this is a critical thing for strong atheists and anti-theists to note. The Great Commission is to make the effort to spread the Gospel - nothing more. If a person tries their (humble) best and fails to convince an atheist that the Christian message is true, they are not condemned for failure.

Nobody can be forced to accept evidence they claim is unconvincing to them - for whatever reason.

(September 3, 2012 at 9:52 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: Matthew and Luke were based on Mark and the source known as "Q." They're not independent accounts.

That is purely a speculative supposition, not proven or even terribly well supported.

(September 3, 2012 at 9:59 pm)Lion IRC Wrote:

(September 3, 2012 at 9:21 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: ...Preaching unto Gentiles was a radical and controversial thing in the church. It took Peter's vision to legitimate it...

A few pages ago you were saying that preaching to the Gentiles was started by PAUL!

(September 3, 2012 at 8:45 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: Remember when Paul or whoever had that vision about it being ok to eat unclean animals? That's when the Gentile mission started.

Neither Peter nor Paul were confused about Jesus' explicit invocation (instigation) to preach The Kingdom to EVERYONE....(who was willing to listen.)

And this is a critical thing for strong atheists and anti-theists to note. The Great Commission is to make the effort to spread the Gospel - nothing more. If a person tries their (humble) best and fails to convince an atheist that the Christian message is true, they are not condemned for failure.

Nobody can be forced to accept evidence they claim is unconvincing.

I said "Paul or whoever." I couldn't remember. And then you said it was Paul too but I found the passage I was thinking of and it was Peter.

And now you're begging the question. You're assuming Jesus actually said to preach to everyone to prove that Jesus said to preach to everyone and that Paul and Peter were doing this because Jesus said so.

The great commission is completely anachronistic. Christianity started out as a Jewish movement. Just answer this: If Jesus really said to preach unto everyone, why was it controversial to preach unto everyone in early NT writings? Why didn't Peter just quote Jesus? Why'd he have to have a vision to legitimate what was already supposedly legitimated!?!?!

---

(September 3, 2012 at 10:00 pm)Atom Wrote:

(September 3, 2012 at 9:52 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: Matthew and Luke were based on Mark and the source known as "Q." They're not independent accounts.

That is purely a speculative supposition, not proven or even terribly well supported.

It's nice to know that you think that. Care to provide evidence against it and also maybe explain why the independent and "inspired" writing position (or whatever you believe) is a better theory that can better make sense of the evidence?

I know the theory has come under criticism from Mark Goodacre but he doesn't substitute it with anything that would make Christianity look better from what I understand.