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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
September 3, 2012 at 5:17 pm
(September 3, 2012 at 4:40 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: (September 3, 2012 at 4:16 pm)Atom Wrote: "As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome." Life of Claudius by Suetonius
This confirms the accuracy of Luke's account in Acts 18:2 "There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome."
... Also what makes you think "Chrestus" is at all a reference to Jesus? When did Jesus ever go to Rome? When did Jesus ever call an "instigation" and how did it get to Rome? And how does the reference in Acts confirm at all that this talking about Jesus? You are arguing against something I didn't say. I didn't say that Chrestus was Christ, that was your idea.
The quotes provided referred to early Christians, so named because they thought Jesus was the Christ predicted by the Jews. The names Jesus and the title Christ are knit together in so many ancient texts that it may as well be Jesus' last name.
Christianity is grounded in history, the facts of science, the rules of logic, and verifiable biblical truths.
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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
September 3, 2012 at 5:17 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2012 at 5:18 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Which texts? Isn't this precisely the problem you're attempting to overcome?
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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
September 3, 2012 at 5:34 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2012 at 5:55 pm by Tea Earl Grey Hot.)
(September 3, 2012 at 5:17 pm)Atom Wrote: (September 3, 2012 at 4:40 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: Also what makes you think "Chrestus" is at all a reference to Jesus? When did Jesus ever go to Rome? When did Jesus ever call an "instigation" and how did it get to Rome? And how does the reference in Acts confirm at all that this talking about Jesus? You are arguing against something I didn't say. I didn't say that Chrestus was Christ, that was your idea.
The quotes provided referred to early Christians, so named because they thought Jesus was the Christ predicted by the Jews. The names Jesus and the title Christ are knit together in so many ancient texts that it may as well be Jesus' last name.
Why did you quote the passage about Jews being instigated by "Chrestus" then? What does that have to do with anything?
Every time I see this passage quoted by apologists, they claim that "Chrestus" is Jesus and the "Jews" are early Christians. So I'm wondering why you thought that was relevant if you didn't intend to imply that. I suspect that was your original intent and you're just covering it up.
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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
September 3, 2012 at 5:43 pm
(September 3, 2012 at 4:28 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: (September 3, 2012 at 4:16 pm)Atom Wrote: ...
Another very strong bit of evidence is that there were a lot of people willing to die for the Christ.
...
Which is not an uncommon or unexpected thing for cults of today or cults back then.
Careful Tea. It's a great argument but just expect a deer-in-the-headlights look from Christians as they fail to understand how such a comparison applies.
They'll acknowledge Jim Jones, the Hale-Bopp cult leader and David Koresh all led their followers to die for crazy beliefs that no sane person should have ever believed but won't understand the relevance. After all, these are just silly cults but Christianity is the Truth! How can you compare the two? (face palm)
Another argument to use here is how they're using folklore to prove mythology (specifically, the Church melodramatic folklore of suffering martyrs going to their deaths with heads held high, yatta yatta). This argument will also be lost on them as they can't understand the distinction between Church folklore and history.
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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
September 3, 2012 at 6:27 pm
Quote:The names Jesus and the title Christ are knit together in so many ancient texts that it may as well be Jesus' last name.
Maybe in jesus-based horseshit. Certainly not in the earliest Greco-Roman writings.
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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
September 3, 2012 at 8:21 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2012 at 8:22 pm by Lion IRC.)
(September 3, 2012 at 4:16 pm)Atom Wrote: ...In Epistles X.96 Pliny the Younger, Roman governor in Bithynia AD112 wrote to Emperor Trajan to seek advice as to how to treat the christians. He was concerned that they chose death rather than bow to a statue of the emperor or "curse CHRIST, which a genuine CHRISTian cannot be induced to do." Text at: http://www.ancient-literature.com/rome_p...e_X96.html
Why would a subordinate of Trajan foolishly write a letter to him, (admitting dereliction of his duty,) advising that there was a problem he couldnt handle, caused by a bunch of people martyring themselves, for a story they knew was a lie, about a Man who never existed?
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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
September 3, 2012 at 8:26 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2012 at 8:27 pm by Tea Earl Grey Hot.)
(September 3, 2012 at 8:21 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: (September 3, 2012 at 4:16 pm)Atom Wrote: ...In Epistles X.96 Pliny the Younger, Roman governor in Bithynia AD112 wrote to Emperor Trajan to seek advice as to how to treat the christians. He was concerned that they chose death rather than bow to a statue of the emperor or "curse CHRIST, which a genuine CHRISTian cannot be induced to do." Text at: http://www.ancient-literature.com/rome_p...e_X96.html
Why would a subordinate of Trajan foolishly write a letter to him, (admitting dereliction of his duty,) advising that there was a problem he couldnt handle, caused by a bunch of people martyring themselves, for a story they knew was a lie, about a Man who never existed?
*facepalm* It wouldn't have mattered whether or not Jesus really existed when handling a problem concerning his followers decades after the time he supposedly existed. It would have been irrelevant .
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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
September 3, 2012 at 8:39 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2012 at 8:40 pm by Lion IRC.)
(September 3, 2012 at 4:40 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: [quote='Atom' pid='331340' dateline='1346703410']
"As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome." Life of Claudius by Suetonius
This confirms the accuracy of Luke's account in Acts 18:2 "There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome."
(September 3, 2012 at 4:40 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: ...When did Jesus ever call an "instigation" and how did it get to Rome?...
And then he told them, "Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone. (Mark 16:15)
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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
September 3, 2012 at 8:45 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2012 at 8:53 pm by Tea Earl Grey Hot.)
(September 3, 2012 at 8:39 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: (September 3, 2012 at 4:40 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: [quote='Atom' pid='331340' dateline='1346703410']
"As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome." Life of Claudius by Suetonius
This confirms the accuracy of Luke's account in Acts 18:2 "There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome."
(September 3, 2012 at 4:40 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: ...When did Jesus ever call an "instigation" and how did it get to Rome?...
And then he told them, "Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone. (Mark 16:15)
That isn't an authentic quote of Jesus. He would have been saying that before the Gentile mission opened up. It's anachronistic. Remember when Paul or whoever had that vision about it being ok to eat unclean animals? That's when the Gentile mission started. After Jesus was supposed to have died. If Jesus really said that, why didn't Christians start preaching to gentiles immediately? Why did it happen only years after Jesus died?
In other words, that verse is a later development of the church put into Jesus' mouth.
I should also ask, what makes you think "preaching" is an "instigation"?
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RE: Where did the Jesus myth come from?
September 3, 2012 at 9:06 pm
(This post was last modified: September 3, 2012 at 9:26 pm by Lion IRC.)
(September 3, 2012 at 8:45 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: (September 3, 2012 at 8:39 pm)Lion IRC Wrote: And then he told them, "Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone. (Mark 16:15)
That isn't an authentic quote of Jesus. Yes it is.
(September 3, 2012 at 8:45 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: He would have been saying that before the Gentile mission opened up. It's anachronistic. Wut? It says... to everyone. Where do you think Paul got the idea?
(September 3, 2012 at 8:45 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: ...Remember when Paul or whoever had that vision about it being ok to eat unclean animals? That's when the Gentile mission started. Nope. God so loved the WORLD - the whole world...right from the beginning. Anyone listening to Jesus' parable of the TWO brothers understands that the Father loves both the prodigal son and the righteous son - eternal Israel.
(September 3, 2012 at 8:45 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: ...If Jesus really said that, why didn't Christians start preaching to gentiles immediately? They did.
''Teacher,” said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.” Mark 9:38
(September 3, 2012 at 8:45 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: Why did it happen only years after Jesus died? Thats not true.
Shortly after Pentecost...
"The apostles and the brothers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God.''
Acts 11:1
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