I read it as if your a disbeliever your already fucked. lol

Which is a bit harsh on anyone not born a Muslim.

If you were looking for more examples then I remember reading some in the first couple of books.

(September 22, 2012 at 2:01 pm)Insanity x Wrote: I read it as if your a disbeliever your already fucked. lol

Exactly, but Quran shows disbelievers can become believers and not only can, but that most in Arabia did.

Therefore you have a contradiction.

No Muslim will believe it's impossible for disbeliever to be guided towards Islam. Faith is something to be said that doesn't happen unless God wills it.

This looks like a slip up from the Prophet.

(September 22, 2012 at 2:09 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Exactly, but Quran shows disbelievers can become believers and not only can, but that most in Arabia did.

Therefore you have a contradiction.

No Muslim will believe it's impossible for disbeliever to be guided towards Islam. Faith is something to be said that doesn't happen unless God wills it.

This looks like a slip up from the Prophet.

Could mean disbelievers as atheists only. So anyone who is from another religion can convert but not atheists.

(September 22, 2012 at 2:09 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: This looks like a slip up from the Prophet.

Ixnay on the criticizing the prophetay.

I may be getting guidance from God all the time or not at all. I just have no way of knowing. One thing is for sure though: I never expect or wait for any. In this life we are all better off to make our own choices and get what needs doing done ourselves. I suspect you would agree? Probably the only difference is you assume you are getting some and are grateful while I assume otherwise.

(September 22, 2012 at 2:20 pm)Insanity x Wrote:

(September 22, 2012 at 2:09 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Exactly, but Quran shows disbelievers can become believers and not only can, but that most in Arabia did.

Therefore you have a contradiction.

No Muslim will believe it's impossible for disbeliever to be guided towards Islam. Faith is something to be said that doesn't happen unless God wills it.

This looks like a slip up from the Prophet.

Could mean disbelievers as atheists only. So anyone who is from another religion can convert but not atheists.

Disbelievers in context of Quran, means those whom disbelieve in God's Guidance.

The disbelievers of that Area almost all believed in God, they just associated with him Sons and daughters (Jinn/Angels) or worshiped idols a long with God.

One of the three verses I posted also stated those "whom believe not in God's Ayat"...

And other verses state those "whom deny God's Ayat"....

So even if disbelievers in Quran meant Atheists, then you would have those verses.

But it would not make sense in context of Quran, since almost all of Arabia believed in God and they were being addressed as disbelievers.

Also believers are contrasted to disbelievers, while Quran states those whom desire other then the religion of Islam, will be losers in the next. As well as other verses say all but believers are reduced to the lowest of the low.

Aside from that, is verses stating disbelievers can become believers. For example, the famous verse that if disbelievers stop their opposition and believe, all their past sins will be forgiven.

That is why people say converts come with a fresh sheet.

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(September 22, 2012 at 2:25 pm)whateverist Wrote:

(September 22, 2012 at 2:09 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: This looks like a slip up from the Prophet.

Ixnay on the criticizing the prophetay.

I may be getting guidance from God all the time or not at all. I just have no way of knowing. One thing is for sure though: I never expect or wait for any. In this life we are all better off to make our own choices and get what needs doing done ourselves. I suspect you would agree?

Yeah I agree.

Quote:Probably the only difference is you assume you are getting some and are grateful while I assume otherwise.

I don't think God interferes, I feel like morality is linked to him, but that he made up a system....

If I say God guided me to the truth, I would have to say, others who believe in false religions or what not, God is treating me special over them.

And I don't believe that. I believe there is a system, and I believe there is inner sword of God within the soul, but it's not that God interferes, it's that the system he constantly creates, can guide people, and that includes the system of the mind and soul.

Quote:Exactly, but Quran shows disbelievers can become believers and not only can, but that most in Arabia did.

It's amazing what people will agree to if you swing a sword at their head.

(September 22, 2012 at 2:51 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Exactly, but Quran shows disbelievers can become believers and not only can, but that most in Arabia did.

It's amazing what people will agree to if you swing a sword at their head.

I know. Threaten me with eternal torment of any grotesque form you can think of and I'll laugh in your face. But hold a sword over my living body and I'll give you all the hosannas and praise-be-to-Allah's you require.

(September 22, 2012 at 2:51 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Exactly, but Quran shows disbelievers can become believers and not only can, but that most in Arabia did.

It's amazing what people will agree to if you swing a sword at their head.

Yeah I know, this is why the "it's the best generation of people and they are all trustworthy" doctrine of Sunnis never flew with me. Most "Sahabas" converted to Islam due to force, or felt like once Quraysh believed, they should follow Quraysh;s lead and not fight...basically due to the fact Quran stated because they kept up on breaking treaties, to fight them until they accept Islam or die.

If Imam Ali was appointed by the Prophet, it's no surprise if most people reject him, as they were very much opposed to Islam from the beginning till the victory.