Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
(September 22, 2012 at 2:51 pm)Minimalist Wrote: It's amazing what people will agree to if you swing a sword at their head.
I know. Threaten me with eternal torment of any grotesque form you can think of and I'll laugh in your face. But hold a sword over my living body and I'll give you all the hosannas and praise-be-to-Allah's you require.
And if you still don't go along, at least they get to spread their religion in the elimination of anyone who doesn't buy into it.
"If you cling to something as the absolute truth and you are caught in it, when the truth comes in person to knock on your door you will refuse to let it in." ~ Siddhartha Gautama
September 22, 2012 at 3:55 pm (This post was last modified: September 22, 2012 at 4:11 pm by Mystic.)
(September 22, 2012 at 3:47 pm)Rayaan Wrote:
(September 22, 2012 at 1:36 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: There is a lot of verses that state God doesn’t guide the disbelieving people. Other verses state that God doesn’t guide the unjust people
That's not a contradiction, is it?
No it isn't.
But this is where the contradiction lies:
Quran shows it's possible to go from unjust state to just state. Doing so would be "guidance".
Likewise, going from disbelief to belief, would be "guidance".
Both are shown to be possible.
Yet many verses show God doesn't guide disbelievers or unjust. Then how do they become just or believers when that is guidance?
This is also with perspective, no soul is guided except with permission of God, and no soul believes unless with permission of God.
A verse that is relevant, in that it says God guides to belief:
Sahih International: They consider it a favor to you that they have accepted Islam. Say, "Do not consider your Islam a favor to me. Rather, Allah has conferred favor upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if you should be truthful."
Pickthall: They make it a favour unto thee (Muhammad) that they have surrendered (unto Him). Say: Deem not your Surrender a favour unto me; but Allah doth confer a favour on you, inasmuch as He hath led you to the Faith, if ye are earnest.
Yusuf Ali: They impress on thee as a favour that they have embraced Islam. Say, "Count not your Islam as a favour upon me: Nay, Allah has conferred a favour upon you that He has guided you to the faith, if ye be true and sincere.
Shakir: They think that they lay you under an obligation by becoming Muslims. Say: Lay me not under obligation by your Islam: rather Allah lays you under an obligation by guiding you to the faith if you are truthful.
Muhammad Sarwar: (The bedouins tell you that) you owe them (a great deal) for their embracing Islam. Tell them, "You are not doing me any favors by embracing Islam. In fact, it is God who has done you a great favor by guiding you to the faith. (Think about this) if you are people of truth.
Mohsin Khan: They regard as favour upon you (O Muhammad SAW) that they have embraced Islam. Say: "Count not your Islam as a favour upon me. Nay, but Allah has conferred a favour upon you, that He has guided you to the Faith, if you indeed are true.
Arberry: They count it as a favour to thee that they have surrendered! Say: 'Do not count your surrendering as a favour to me; nay, but rather God confers a favour upon you, in that He has guided you to belief, if it be that you are truthful.
(September 22, 2012 at 3:53 pm)TaraJo Wrote:
(September 22, 2012 at 3:00 pm)whateverist Wrote: I know. Threaten me with eternal torment of any grotesque form you can think of and I'll laugh in your face. But hold a sword over my living body and I'll give you all the hosannas and praise-be-to-Allah's you require.
And if you still don't go along, at least they get to spread their religion in the elimination of anyone who doesn't buy into it.
Well to be honest, the Arabs deserved it. 1st the Prophet offered them peace, but they wouldn't accept that. They fought him, kicked the believers out of their homes...and then retaliation happened but even then it says if they offer you peace, to accept peace.
The Arabs kept up breaking treaties, so then in the last treaty, the Prophet taught to go kill them unless they accept Islam.
At any rate, I think it was too drastic a measure, but it wasn't like that was the first option on the table. They in a way forced the Prophet to do so.
None of those verses imply that the disbelievers/unjust cannot ever change, though. When they change something within themselves, that is when Allah's guidance comes into action.
The 3 complementary verses are:
A) Allah does not guide those who disbelieve (in Him and His message).
B) Allah guides those who turn to Him and strive toward Him.
C) Allah guides those whom He wills.
From that, we can logically infer that Allah's guidance is dependent on our own intentions and our efforts. He doesn't simply guide whoever He wants to without looking at people's intentions and desires. The statement in A does not necessarily mean that they can never turn their hearts toward Allah. The verses which talk about disbelievers having a "seal" on their hearts and being "blind" and "deaf" are only referring to a specific type of disbelievers, i.e. those who are the most ardent and resolute in remaining in their state of non-belief (hence they will never believe per the Quranic verses). That does not exclude the fact that there may be other disbelievers who have the potential to change and thereby receive guidance. That is possible because there are degrees of belief/disbelief.
There are also degrees in Allah's guidance (hadaya), and His degree of guidance corresponds to one's degree of belief/disbelief. Here's a link to a good article that explains the issue of guidance by pointing out the related Quranic verses, their meanings, their implications, and the connections between them. Read all of it carefully and then, hopefully, you will understand the issue better:
(September 22, 2012 at 1:36 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: There is a lot of verses that state God doesn’t guide the disbelieving people. Other verses state that God doesn’t guide the unjust people
That's not a contradiction, is it?
Not if you think disbelievers are by default unjust.
No, not at all.
"That is not dead which can eternal lie and with strange aeons even death may die."
- Abdul Alhazred.
September 23, 2012 at 8:18 pm (This post was last modified: September 23, 2012 at 8:27 pm by Mystic.)
Why isn't the change in themselves that is an initial condition for faith not regarded not as guidance from God? At any rate, a disbeliever is a disbeliever as long as he doesn't believe. As soon s he believes, he been guided to faith. Yet how is that possible when disbelievers are not guided to faith? One of the verses say "those whom do not believe in our Signs, God will not guide them..."..in this case, how would they move from condition of non-believing in God's signs to the state of believing in them, while it is stated God doesn't disbelievers but says he guides to faith.
Also, what about the verses that states "as for those whom disbelieve, whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe?". How is that not a statement about 1) all disbelievers 2) that they would not change from disbelief to belief.
Also the verses about hearts sealed, they were general about those whom deny God's signs. So how can they be specific about only certain disbelievers?
September 24, 2012 at 9:04 am (This post was last modified: September 24, 2012 at 9:04 am by KichigaiNeko.)
(September 23, 2012 at 8:18 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Why isn't the change in themselves that is an initial condition for faith not regarded not as guidance from God? At any rate, a disbeliever is a disbeliever as long as he doesn't believe. As soon s he believes, he been guided to faith. Yet how is that possible when disbelievers are not guided to faith? One of the verses say "those whom do not believe in our Signs, God will not guide them..."..in this case, how would they move from condition of non-believing in God's signs to the state of believing in them, while it is stated God doesn't disbelievers but says he guides to faith.
Also, what about the verses that states "as for those whom disbelieve, whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe?". How is that not a statement about 1) all disbelievers 2) that they would not change from disbelief to belief.
Also the verses about hearts sealed, they were general about those whom deny God's signs. So how can they be specific about only certain disbelievers?
For all your mental masturbation Mystic...your god does NOT exist hence no one is "guided" except by their own internal philosophy
Stop trying to make it religious mate and you will get further.
How's the weight loss coming along?
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
September 24, 2012 at 1:32 pm (This post was last modified: September 24, 2012 at 1:36 pm by Mystic.)
1) Those whom don't believe in God's Ayat, God will not guide them.
2) God guides to faith.
3) To be guided to faith, one must leave state of not believing to believing.
4) Therefore one must be guided while they do not believe in God's signs.
5) God says he doesn't guide people in that state.
6) God says he does guide people in that state.
5&6 contradict.
Then we have verses which are more explicit, in that says simply disbelievers will never believe.
(September 24, 2012 at 9:04 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: For all your mental masturbation Mystic...your god does NOT exist hence no one is "guided" except by their own internal philosophy
God definitely exists, but I agree that God doesn't guide or misguide people, he simply put a system in which by our free-will, we can be guided or misguided.
Quote:Stop trying to make it religious mate and you will get further.
How will I get further in life if I stop believing in God?
Quote:How's the weight loss coming along?
Exercise is good, diet not so good (ate like 15 olives yesterday).
