(November 3, 2008 at 12:49 pm)Tiberius Wrote:

Quote:What you ask of me will require some effort on my part and on your part if you actually pay any attention to what I put forth. You, uh - you willing to do that?

It really shouldn't require effort on either side. You simply have to find the Bible verse that accurately predicted when Jesus came and then paste it for us to read (a link to the biblegateway.com passage would suffice). Seeing as you are so convinced this passage exists, you must know precisely where it is, or your argument is simply a guess.

Anyway, yes, I will pay attention to the passage. Please paste it for us.

In the 6th century B.C.E. the prophet Daniel foretold that the "Messiah the Leader" would appear 69 "weeks" after the order went forth to restore and rebuild Jerusalem.

Daniel 9:24 - 25 - There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. And you should know and have the insight [that] from the going forth of [the] word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah [the] Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. She will return and be actually rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in the straits of the times.

By Jewish account each of these weeks were 7 years long, because just as every seventh day was a Sabbath every seventh year was a sabbath. (Exodus 20:8-11 / 23:10, 11.)

According to the Bible and secular history the order to restore Jerusalem went out in 455 B.C.E. (Nehemiah 2:1-8 - And it came about in the month Nisan, in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king, that wine was before him, and I as usual took up the wine and gave it to the king. But never had I happened to be gloomy before him. So the king said to me: "Why is your face gloomy when you yourself are not sick? This is nothing but a gloominess of heart." At this I became very much afraid.

Then I said to the king: "Let the king himself live to time indefinite! Why should not my face become gloomy when the city, the house of the burial places of my forefathers, is devastated, and its very gates have been eaten up with fire?" In turn the king said to me: "What is this that you are seeking to secure?" At once I prayed to the God of the heavens. After that I said to the king: "If to the king it does seem good, and if your servant seems good before you, that you would send me to Judah, to the city of the burial places of my forefathers, that I may rebuild it." At this the king said to me, as his queenly consort was sitting beside him: "How long will your journey come to be and when will you return?" So it seemed good before the king that he should send me, when I gave him the appointed time.

And I went on to say to the king: "If to the king it does seem good, let letters be given me to the governors beyond the River, that they may let me pass until I come to Judah; also a letter to Asaph the keeper of the park that belongs to the king, that he may give me trees to build with timber the gates of the Castle that belongs to the house, and for the wall of the city and for the house into which I am to enter." So the king gave [them] to me, according to the good hand of my God upon me.)

So the Jews knew that 483 (69 X 7) years after 455 B.C.E. the Messiah would come. That is when Jesus was anointed by Jehovah's holy spirit - the Christ (Messiah) meaning "anointed one" at 29 C.E. (Luke 3:15, 16, 21, 22.)

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Second coming

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King David prophetically said that Jesus as Lord would sit at Jehovah's right hand until his enemies are as a stool for your feet. (Psalm 110:1 / Acts 2:34 - 36) As for Jesus' return - the Greek word parousia is used which means presence not a physical return to Earth. Remember his human body was sacrificed once for all time. There would be a period of time before Jesus would be King.

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God's Kingdom On Earth

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There is only one place where God put his name, an earthly representation of God's Kingdom. Jerusalem. (1 Kings 11:36) In 607 the sin of Jerusalem caused God to bring the Babylonians to destroy Jerusalem and to end the line of Kings. This began a period of time known as "the appointed times of the nations." A period of time when Jehovah had no earthly representation. No kings.

There would be a new King representing his Kingdom much later.
"Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled." Luke 21:24.

Daniel indicated that the appointed times of the nations would last "seven times." (Daniel 4:23 - 25) The Bible also indicates that three and a half "times" equal 1,260 days (Revelation 12:6, 14) Twice that would be seven times or 2,520 days. Nothing happened in that many days but if you use the day for a year - since the Bible often uses this reconing (Numbers 14:34 / Ezekiel 4:6 you come up with the year 1914.

Isaac Newton along with other theologians place an importance upon this date. It is likely that it is the date of Christ's "return," or parousia. Presence.

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(November 5, 2008 at 11:33 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Of course this isn't evidence of God or a prophecy. You can't use scripture(s) as evidence.
If you can perhaps I should buy the FSM gospel and you and me, Daystar, can have an argument of who is the truth , Yahweh and/or Jesus or the FSM.

I can't use scripture as evidence of God or a prophecy because? Give me a reason.

What is the FSM gospel?

(November 5, 2008 at 12:33 pm)Daystar Wrote: I can't use scripture as evidence of God or a prophecy because? Give me a reason.

Because you can't use a book over 2000 years old as evidence for things that there are no evidence for today! And you can't use fictional stories as proof of reality! And to be honest its rather silly and futile to switch back and forth between what is metaphorical and what is literal. That's you're own interpretation!

Quote:What is the FSM gospel?

The FSM gospel is the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti monster that spoofs other religions, if I use that book as proof that a flying spaghetti monster exists and switch back and forth between what is metaphorical and what is literal, thats just crazy! But it seems fine with God because people have been doing it for so long! When really its just as crazy to believe in God, it just isn't treated as such because so much more people believe in "God" than the FSM.
There is no more evidence for your God or ANY God than for the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Invisible Pink Unicorn or Russell's Teapot!

(November 5, 2008 at 12:50 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote:

(November 5, 2008 at 12:33 pm)Daystar Wrote: I can't use scripture as evidence of God or a prophecy because? Give me a reason.

Because you can't use a book over 2000 years old as evidence for things that there are no evidence for today! And you can't use fictional stories as proof of reality! And to be honest its rather silly and futile to switch back and forth between what is metaphorical and what is literal. That's you're own interpretation!

The fact that a book over 2000 years old - going back to Adam so 6000 years - records the god of those people is all the evidence needed to indicate without a doubt that that god of those people exists. It doesn't matter if that god is mythical, literal, or metaphorical. The prophecies were prophecies and recorded as well - if they came true or not. So from the start you operate upon a false premise and ignorance.

(November 5, 2008 at 12:50 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: The FSM gospel is the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti monster that spoofs other religions, if I use that book as proof that a flying spaghetti monster exists and switch back and forth between what is metaphorical and what is literal, thats just crazy! But it seems fine with God because people have been doing it for so long! When really its just as crazy to believe in God, it just isn't treated as such because so much more people believe in "God" than the FSM.
There is no more evidence for your God or ANY God than for the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the Invisible Pink Unicorn or Russell's Teapot!

If I walk down a busy street and into a shopping mall this Xmas season and I hear some smart ass kid say "There is no Santa Clause!" after just having passed three on the street and looking at one in the shopping mall I would be inclined to correct him.

The first part of understanding something is to figure exactly what it is - not if it exists or not and you - like that smart ass kid - have missed the first step which makes your assumption void.

(November 5, 2008 at 12:33 pm)Daystar Wrote: Nothing happened in that many days but if you use the day for a year - since the Bible often uses this reconing (Numbers 14:34 / Ezekiel 4:6 you come up with the year 1914.

Isaac Newton along with other theologians place an importance upon this date. It is likely that it is the date of Christ's "return," or parousia. Presence.

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So, where is he? It's 2008 already.

(November 5, 2008 at 4:31 pm)Daystar Wrote: The fact that a book over 2000 years old - going back to Adam so 6000 years - records the god of those people is all the evidence needed to indicate without a doubt that that god of those people exists. It doesn't matter if that god is mythical, literal, or metaphorical. The prophecies were prophecies and recorded as well - if they came true or not. So from the start you operate upon a false premise and ignorance.

This is not evidence. If everyone in the world believed in the FSM for thousands of years it still wouldn't mean there was any truth in it. Same for your God.

Quote:If I walk down a busy street and into a shopping mall this Xmas season and I hear some smart ass kid say "There is no Santa Clause!" after just having passed three on the street and looking at one in the shopping mall I would be inclined to correct him.

And I would certainly have the right to correct you if you walked down the street shouting "There IS a GOD!" but I might just ignore you anyway, because you'd sound like an unshakeable faith-head, and I wouldn't want to stand around in the street arguing with you when you might never understand.

Quote:The first part of understanding something is to figure exactly what it is - not if it exists or not and you - like that smart ass kid - have missed the first step which makes your assumption void.

Your God is a supernatural being. Also everything supernatural there is no evidence for, therefore your God almost certainly does not exist.
Its fine if you want to say that your God exists in the same way Santa Clause does. Thats fine. He almost certainly doesn't exist in reality he's just in your imagination.

(November 5, 2008 at 5:42 pm)infidel666 Wrote:

(November 5, 2008 at 12:33 pm)Daystar Wrote: Nothing happened in that many days but if you use the day for a year - since the Bible often uses this reconing (Numbers 14:34 / Ezekiel 4:6 you come up with the year 1914.

Isaac Newton along with other theologians place an importance upon this date. It is likely that it is the date of Christ's "return," or parousia. Presence.

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So, where is he? It's 2008 already.

He is in heaven, what did you expect, doing the talk show circuit?

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(November 5, 2008 at 8:03 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: This is not evidence. If everyone in the world believed in the FSM for thousands of years it still wouldn't mean there was any truth in it. Same for your God.

How is a god real? Only in that it is percieved as "mighty" or "Venerated." All the mythological gods you can name are real gods only because they are venerated. A god is anything that is venerated. Jesus and Moses and the Judges of Israel were all called gods and were real historical persons.

Your problem right off the bat is that you don't fully understand that. If you try and take a scientific position on the existance of gods without fully understanding what it means to be a god you are screwed from the start. It clouds your percenption and only demonstrates that you are ignorant of what you are talking about.

A god can be anything. If I pick up a stick and make it my god then it is a real god.

(November 5, 2008 at 8:03 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: And I would certainly have the right to correct you if you walked down the street shouting "There IS a GOD!" but I might just ignore you anyway, because you'd sound like an unshakeable faith-head, and I wouldn't want to stand around in the street arguing with you when you might never understand.

[laughs] Well - be that as it may - I couldn't blame you there, but actually you would be wrong even if I were as obtuse as the average 'faith-head.'

(November 5, 2008 at 8:03 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Your God is a supernatural being. Also everything supernatural there is no evidence for, therefore your God almost certainly does not exist.
Its fine if you want to say that your God exists in the same way Santa Clause does. Thats fine. He almost certainly doesn't exist in reality he's just in your imagination.

The argument can be made that my God is supernatural, but that doesn't change your position into a correct one. It doesn't matter if ones god is a feather up the ass it is still a god.

If you get to the point in this discussion where you realize that and begin to distinguish my alledged supernatural God by his name, as 99% of all gods are known by a name, then your leverage improves sltightly and we can then begin to discuss science and supernatural.

For example, if you had kids would you relate to them the myth of Santa Clause or would you educate them on the Myth of Santa Clause - where it comes from and what it means, how it is represented etc?

When you say God is a Hypothosis that is one thing, when you say pretty much anything else about him it is pure speculation unless you know what you are talking about.

Wait.... did he just say he believes in Santa Clause?

(November 6, 2008 at 1:05 am)Jason Jarred Wrote: Wait.... did he just say he believes in Santa Clause?

No, I don't even cellebrate Xmas. I was just pointing out that Santa Clause, though only a myth is real. You have to look at things for what they are.

God is a reality and - lets say - evolution and Santa Clause are myths.

Regarding so called biblical prophecies most scholars agree that most of them were written after the fact.And some of them were so vague that they can be matched to any current or past event to try to authenticate its divine inspiration.

(November 6, 2008 at 11:52 am)chatpilot Wrote: Regarding so called biblical prophecies most scholars agree that most of them were written after the fact.And some of them were so vague that they can be matched to any current or past event to try to authenticate its divine inspiration.

Oh, most scholars say that, do they. In what particular field of study do these scholars specialize in? Study hall? No responsible scholar would be so stupid as to suggest Biblical prophecies were recorded after the fact when the earliest manuscripts wouldn't have allowed it.

As for the authentication of divine inspiration, lets see you compare the prophecy of Cyrus at Isaiah 44:26–45:7, recorded hundreds of years before Cyrus was born with Herodotus I, 191, 192, that says Cyrus went: "drawing off the river by a canal into the lake [the artificial lake said to have been made earlier by Queen Nitocris], which was till now a marsh, he made the stream to sink till its former channel could be forded. When this happened, the Persians who were posted with this intent made their way into Babylon by the channel of the Euphrates, which had now sunk about to the height of the middle of a man’s thigh. Now if the Babylonians had known beforehand or learnt what Cyrus was planning, they would have suffered the Persians to enter the city and brought them to a miserable end; for then they would have shut all the gates that opened on the river and themselves mounted up on to the walls that ran along the river banks, and so caught their enemies as in a trap. But as it was, the Persians were upon them unawares, and by reason of the great size of the city - so say those who dwell there - those in the outer parts of it were overcome, yet the dwellers in the middle part knew nothing of it; all this time they were dancing and making merry at a festival . . . till they learnt the truth but too well. [See Daniel 5:1-4, 30 / Jeremiah 50:24 / 51:31, 32.] Thus was Babylon then for the first time taken.”