(October 1, 2012 at 2:32 am)Doubting_Thomas Wrote: The slave to god thing is another oddity in my book. If we are mere slaves, why do we have free will.

Not all Protestants believe that you do have free will. I don't think you do.

Free will seems to me to be more of an illusion than a reality.

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(September 30, 2012 at 6:23 pm)Doubting_Thomas Wrote: One of the criticisms we often see levelled against Atheism, and particularly scientifically argued atheism, is that the doubters are "arrogant" and should be more "humble".

What is really meant by this, is there a Christian-specific meaning to humility? We all know the dictionary definitions, but I'm confused how any such criticism isn't equally or more-so applicable to the religious position?

This is just an argument ad hominem, bad reasoning from us Christians. Your humbleness or arrogance has nothing to do with whether or not the proposition is true or false.


However, in regards to your question about, "what do Christians mean when they say 'humble'?"

Humility in a Christian sense is treasuring God and his will above your own. Like Drich said, a Christian submits to God as a slave would to a master. The Bible says you are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness.

Romans 6:16–18 (RSV) — 16 Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.

(October 5, 2012 at 7:05 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote:

(October 1, 2012 at 2:32 am)Doubting_Thomas Wrote: The slave to god thing is another oddity in my book. If we are mere slaves, why do we have free will.

Not all Protestants believe that you do have free will. I don't think you do.

Free will seems to me to be more of an illusion than a reality.

Though it's likely equally as implausible that there is a someone, somewhere, who has the free will we cannot have, and long ago decided that we were going to have that extra slice of cheesecake.

There's a double movement here, we examine the plausible mechanisms based on cause and effect, and rule that free will not only does not, but indeed cannot exist in a world that makes sense. But then they postulate a god who transcends such mundane impossibilities. Where? In a world where effect doesn't follow cause, and sense does not make sense? Would you really want to follow a god whose ways, ultimately, cannot be sensible, rational, and determinable?

(October 5, 2012 at 7:20 pm)apophenia Wrote: Would you really want to follow a god whose ways, ultimately, cannot be sensible, rational, and determinable?

Isaiah 55:8–9 (RSV) — 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD.9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Yeah, I can sum up the answer to this topic pretty easily.
Basically they don't like anything that pisses on the idea that when they die they'll get to live forever and enjoy the company of their dead friends and family for all eternity. They don't enjoy the slightest suggestion that when their dear mother, father, brother, wife, son, friend or hamster die they won't get to see them ever again and they're simply wormfood. They want to believe that no matter how trivial, boring, unloved, unjust, depressing, wasted and thoroughly unworthwhile their lives are that its ok because its all going to sort itself out after its over. They'll get their just reward, they'll finally be recognized, they'll get all they ever dreamed of and finally the whole struggle will be over and eternal bliss will await them.

It has nothing to do with evidence or reason. You can be the most polite, intelligent and charismatic person in the world but if you try telling them that probably isn't going to happen and theres no reason to think it does then they tend to get slightly pissed off. They call it arrogance.
Personally I think they need to wipe away the tears, stop playing make believe, put some big boy pants on and grow the fuck up. The worlds a cruel place and this is likely the only life you get.
They need to get over it and stop wasting time.

(October 5, 2012 at 9:20 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote:

(October 5, 2012 at 7:20 pm)apophenia Wrote: Would you really want to follow a god whose ways, ultimately, cannot be sensible, rational, and determinable?

Isaiah 55:8–9 (RSV) — 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD.9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

So, is that a yes then?

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(October 5, 2012 at 7:05 pm)Reasonable_Jeff Wrote: Humility in a Christian sense is treasuring God and his will above your own. Like Drich said, a Christian submits to God as a slave would to a master. The Bible says you are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness.

I agree. This is the foundation and the ultimate purpose of the Christian dogma - turning men into slaves for god. And since their god is not real, what they really would be slaves to are the god's so-called proxies on Earth.

It's basically the bible's cop out disclaimer saying "If this doesn't make any sense to you then you just can't understand god's amazingness". If you begin an argument about god's ethics with the presupposed premise that god is always right, and if he looks otherwise then you're just blind to his infinite wisdom, then of course you can't lose.

What is it the Freudians say about submission of the ego in the service of the ego? If it turns out that gods are bunko, then what exactly are Christians really submitting to and what will is it they are inviting to work through them? What if it is really just your own self-aggrandizing will to triumph while seeing yourself in a positive light? You get to be simultaneously humble and god himself. Blameless and merciful (alternating with vengeful). Self deceit is such a terrible road to go down, a hall of mirrors ultimately.

(October 6, 2012 at 12:08 am)RaphielDrake Wrote: Personally I think they need to wipe away the tears, stop playing make believe, put some big boy pants on and grow the fuck up. The worlds a cruel place and this is likely the only life you get.
They need to get over it and stop wasting time.

Clearly you're just being arrogant.............j/k

=D

(October 6, 2012 at 12:08 am)RaphielDrake Wrote: It has nothing to do with evidence or reason. You can be the most polite, intelligent and charismatic person in the world but if you try telling them that probably isn't going to happen and theres no reason to think it does then they tend to get slightly pissed off. They call it arrogance.

It is arrogance in the sense of epistemology. Atheists have faith in a doctrine called Empiricism--that whatever they don't perceive directly with their senses does not exist, end of discussion. I confess it's not easy to believe with secondhand evidence and reason, but how else are we to know about the non-natural realm? Atheists claim they know God doesn't exist. Agnostics claim they know they can't know whether God exists. Christians believe that, if there, God would reach through the barrier of nature to contact them. Part of this is accomplished through the Bible, part through the Holy Spirit, and additionally via introspection (by which the created can learn about the image of their creator). You demand physical proof of a non-physical being. If your starting point is rooted in naturalism, there's nothing I can do to convince you. Atheists like to remain closed until pried open. Christians remain open until slammed shut. Don't wait to be convinced by the most undeniable evidence in the universe. Open your eyes and... let yourself be vulnerable. My God is the God of the heart, and he can't meet you until you meet Him.

(October 6, 2012 at 1:01 pm)Undeceived Wrote: It is arrogance in the sense of epistemology. Atheists have faith in a doctrine called Empiricism--that whatever they don't perceive directly with their senses does not exist, end of discussion.

Everyone has faith in anything they believe. We have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow, but it would be unreasonable to think otherwise. It is the amount of faith that matters. When you have more faith than genuine evidence, it is reasonable for someone to doubt the validity of your claim.

Undecieved Wrote:I confess it's not easy to believe with secondhand evidence and reason, but how else are we to know about the non-natural realm?

What is this non-natural realm of which you speak? You assume that it exists whilst simultaneously admitting that it cannot be observed, nor can evidence of its existence be found. Explain again why the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist.

Undecieved Wrote:Atheists claim they know God doesn't exist.

Not all atheists. Knowing something is different from absolute knowledge. Absolute knowledge is only attainable in mathematics. There could be a part of the universe where the laes of physics are suspended. We don't know absolutely that this is untrue, but we have no reason to assume that it is true.

Undecieved Wrote:Agnostics claim they know they can't know whether God exists.

Agnosticism and gnosticism are not the same as atheism and theism. You can be an agnostic atheist, someone who doesn't believe that god exists, but isn't personally certain, or a gnotic theist, someone who is personally certain that a god exists. A pure agnostic may take no stance at all, but agnosticism can be applied to ateism and theism.

Undecieved Wrote:Christians believe that, if there, God would reach through the barrier of nature to contact them.

And yet he doesn't...

Undecieved Wrote:Part of this is accomplished through the Bible, part through the Holy Spirit, and additionally via introspection (by which the created can learn about the image of their creator).

1. No evidence that the bible was any more divinely inspired than the koran.

2. A vague emotional experience is proof of god. A bit credulous, are we?

3.Basically the same as #2. We look inside ourselves and fill a hole with an imaginary god, so we will feel better. I don't hear many theists saying they wish god didn't exist, but some atheists say they wish he did.

Undecieved Wrote:You demand physical proof of a non-physical being.

How do you know he is non-physical? Is that how you defined him? How would we know he was non-physical unless we already assumed that he existed and conformed to our understanding of him? I see this as circular reasoning.

Undecieved Wrote:If your starting point is rooted in naturalism, there's nothing I can do to convince you.

Uh...yeah. How can we just take your word for it that a supernatural being that we can't ever find evidence for exists, just because?

Undecieved Wrote:atheists like to remain closed until pried open. Christians atheists remain open until slammed shut. Don't wait to be convinced by the most undeniable evidence in the universe. Open your eyes and... let yourself be vulnerable. My God is the God of the heart, and he can't meet you until you meet Him. suspend reason and science.

Fixed. You know, it requires a good suspension of disbelief to enjoy a work of fiction, so...