(October 17, 2012 at 4:46 pm)The_Germans_are_coming Wrote:

(October 17, 2012 at 4:35 pm)John V Wrote: If that's the important part of the question - punishments for apostasy - why ask it specifically of Christians?

I didn`t and I dont think anyone in this thread did.

Whiskey tango hotel? Didja read the title and the OP?

Hello guys,

My being a Christian now is 100% dependent upon God's grace.

Ephesians 1:3-6
English Standard Version (ESV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.


If I was predestined to believe in Christ Jesus as Savior, then I believe that I would come to the same convictions now even given different circumstances because God would draw me to Himself.

John 6:44
English Standard Version (ESV)
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 15:16
English Standard Version (ESV)
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

Quote:If you had been born in Pakistan to Muslim parents, would you hold the Muslim faith with the same conviction that you hold the Christian faith?

(October 17, 2012 at 5:01 pm)John V Wrote: Whiskey tango hotel? Didja read the title and the OP?

conviction. that was the question from the beginning of this thread

the murder of people who commit "apostasy".
yeah I guess I didn`t read to much into this thread.
But on the other hand, I think every organised religion wich demands in it`s dogma the murder of "apostacy" would do so if it could.

(October 17, 2012 at 5:01 pm)John V Wrote: It's equally applicable to atheists

now that`s you stupid part of wich I demand a explaination.

(October 17, 2012 at 4:35 pm)John V Wrote: I have to imagine that there are a statistically insignificant number of Muslims in these countries who are so drawn to atheism that they risk so much.

Maybe they're just in the closet?

(October 17, 2012 at 5:12 pm)The_Germans_are_coming Wrote:

(October 17, 2012 at 5:01 pm)John V Wrote: It's equally applicable to atheists

now that`s you stupid part of wich I demand a explaination.

What's to explain? If an atheist here was born to Muslim parents in a Muslim country in which people renouncing Islam are killed, they'd most likely be Muslim.

(October 17, 2012 at 5:23 pm)John V Wrote: What's to explain? If an atheist here was born to Muslim parents in a Muslim country in which people renouncing Islam are killed, they'd most likely be Muslim.

Isn't everyone born an atheist, but indoctrinated before they can understand it? Also, you don't have to renounce Islam in the way you are saying to be an atheist. You could still be a closet atheist; they can't read your mind.

(October 17, 2012 at 5:23 pm)John V Wrote: What's to explain? If an atheist here was born to Muslim parents in a Muslim country in which people renouncing Islam are killed, they'd most likely be Muslim.

let`s take a look for what I wanted a explanation

(October 17, 2012 at 5:23 pm)John V Wrote: If that's the important part of the question - punishments for apostasy - why ask it specifically of Christians? It's equally applicable to atheists.

Atheists murder people who leave atheism, or would do so if they could?

English is not my mothertounge but that is clearly what I understand your statement states.
can you back that up?!

Quote: If an atheist here was born to Muslim parents in a Muslim country in which people renouncing Islam are killed, they'd most likely be Muslim.

Another idiot has joined the fray I see.

(October 17, 2012 at 5:20 pm)Darkstar Wrote: Maybe they're just in the closet?

Maybe. Maybe I'd secretly be a Christian. Who's to say?

I will grant that it would be easier for someone to end up a closeted atheist or deist, as these can be reached purely through thought, and revealed religions obviously require access to some amount of knowledge specific to the religion or special revelation.

My main point, though, is that at face value it's a silly question that most people wouldn't answer with certainty. If one wants to make an argument against Christianity based on demographics, then they should just make a clear argument against Christianity based on demographics.

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(October 17, 2012 at 5:25 pm)Darkstar Wrote: Isn't everyone born an atheist, but indoctrinated before they can understand it?

I don't know. I've seen that claimed, but never seen it supported.

Quote:Also, you don't have to renounce Islam in the way you are saying to be an atheist. You could still be a closet atheist; they can't read your mind.

You could do the same as a Christian.

(October 17, 2012 at 2:48 am)Doubting_Thomas Wrote: If you had been born in Pakistan to Muslim parents, would you hold the Muslim faith with the same conviction that you hold the Christian faith?

As the peer pressure, sociological stigmas and laws are so pervasive, it is possible that any or most of us may have succumbed to their belief system.