So I guess I could add this straw-manning business to the list of claims you've made and are determined to avoid demonstrating. I've already "picked a claim, any claim", in fact I've picked every claim, and yet you ask this as though it isn't on the page for all to see.

So.....I'm gonna go ahead and assume that you can't (or won't) respond to any of my requests. I think that's fair, how about you?

(September 13, 2012 at 3:23 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Although it can be argued that not all believers in Christianity and Islam are gullible, it can be argued that it's all that is required to accept Christianity and Islam or that it can be the primary factor (along with bias).

What I mean by that, is that since believers are promised paradise, many believers can be gullible people. It cannot be argued that every single believer has not believed out of gullibility.

But then if gullibility can lead to belief, then why is belief always praised?

Well, most of the time you don't "accept" any of the religions you've mentioned. You're simply born into it. If there are any converts that you know, maybe you should check them for the gullibility factor.

(October 19, 2012 at 1:19 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote:

(September 13, 2012 at 3:23 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Although it can be argued that not all believers in Christianity and Islam are gullible, it can be argued that it's all that is required to accept Christianity and Islam or that it can be the primary factor (along with bias).

What I mean by that, is that since believers are promised paradise, many believers can be gullible people. It cannot be argued that every single believer has not believed out of gullibility.

But then if gullibility can lead to belief, then why is belief always praised?

Well, most of the time you don't "accept" any of the religions you've mentioned. You're simply born into it. If there are any converts that you know, maybe you should check them for the gullibility factor.

Well we are gullible as kids. And then later, when we grow up, a lot of remain gullible to the "evidence" of our religion along with bias kicking in.

But my argument doesn't even have to be that most believers are gullible, it simply has to be that some can believe primarily due to this factor. If some believe due to primarily this factor along with bias, then don't you think it's unfair rewarding them for belief and praising it, just because it happens to be the true religion, while others will believe in false religions for the same reason and be condemned?

(October 19, 2012 at 1:26 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: If some believe due to primarily this factor along with bias, then don't you think it's unfair rewarding them for belief and praising it, just because it happens to be the true religion, while others will believe in false religions for the same reason and be condemned?

Yes. Exactly.

Therefore either God is capricious to the point of being irrational -or- our understanding of God's will if flawed. If the latter, then you have to consider the source -bible, koran, whatever- and ask what other dogma is suspect. At the very least, a reasonable person should therefore be an agnostic .. even if they decide to honor their belief in God despite the lack of reliable evidence.

For myself, this is sufficient to conclude that God's will or existence is not worth fretting over. I like what Stimbo says about this in his signature. 'Just live a good and just life. If there be gods and they be just, they will be satisfied. If they're not .. fuck them.' [This is a very rough approximation.]

What's important is seeking the truth and being honest with oneself, as well as being good. If that leads you to disbelief in God, that's fine. If it leads you to belief in Islam, that's fine. If it leads you to believe in Christianity that's fine as well. If it leads a person to belief in God, that's fine as well. Whatever religion or path a person finds being honest with themselves, I will respect them from it.

Not all people sincerely searching the truth find it.

(October 19, 2012 at 1:26 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(October 19, 2012 at 1:19 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: Well, most of the time you don't "accept" any of the religions you've mentioned. You're simply born into it. If there are any converts that you know, maybe you should check them for the gullibility factor.

Well we are gullible as kids. And then later, when we grow up, a lot of remain gullible to the "evidence" of our religion along with bias kicking in.

But my argument doesn't even have to be that most believers are gullible, it simply has to be that some can believe primarily due to this factor. If some believe due to primarily this factor along with bias, then don't you think it's unfair rewarding them for belief and praising it, just because it happens to be the true religion, while others will believe in false religions for the same reason and be condemned?

A gullible person is a person who is ignorant, mostly. I'm sure a believer who has studied his/her own religion and theology will less likely to fit into this description of yours.
Only those who speak from the baseless words of others, like for example, a friend told me that he heard from someone that clapping your hands is haram. However, no such thing can be found in scripture nor in any related religious literature. He is gullible enough to state and even further defend this position, due to his ignorance of theology. So,you see, they go hand in hand.

(October 20, 2012 at 2:44 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: A gullible person is a person who is ignorant, mostly. I'm sure a believer who has studied his/her own religion and theology will less likely to fit into this description of yours.

(October 20, 2012 at 2:44 pm)kılıç_mehmet Wrote: A gullible person is a person who is ignorant, mostly. I'm sure a believer who has studied his/her own religion and theology will less likely to fit into this description of yours.

Why would you be sure of such a thing? If their religion and theology is ignorance on parade at what point will studying (and subscribing to) that ignorance lead to anything other than continued ignorance?

Quote:Only those who speak from the baseless words of others, like for example, a friend told me that he heard from someone that clapping your hands is haram. However, no such thing can be found in scripture nor in any related religious literature. He is gullible enough to state and even further defend this position, due to his ignorance of theology. So,you see, they go hand in hand.

What is scripture other than the baseless words of others? Why would it matter whether he manufactured this taboo or some other asshole before him manufactured it? Enlighten me.

Quote:Why would you be sure of such a thing? If their religion and theology is ignorance on parade at what point will studying (and subscribing to) that ignorance lead to anything other than continued ignorance?

I'm not sure how you or me are to say that their "religion and thelogy is ignorance on parade". They themselves need to state this at first. I never have said such a thing to a person, and never will. I think it's quite a personal thing to ascribe what is ignorant and what is not, when it comes to personal convictions, provided you have no place to stand on.
In the case I've discussed above, I've chosen my point of standing as the religion that the particular believer claims to believe in, and any misconceptions and superstitions that could lead to the gullibility of that person due to his own ignorance about the religion he claims to believe in. Not the ideology itself, for I cannot be the judge of that from any base point I can stand on.

Quote:What is scripture other than the baseless words of others? Why would it matter whether he manufactured this taboo or some other asshole before him manufactured it? Enlighten me.

Depends on what you accept as a base. If I were a moslem, I'd probably see the words of the writers of the gospels as "baseles", and "manufactured". From the viewpoint of the Christian, on the other hand, the Gospels are the base from which he ascribes other religions as baseless.
What on earth is your base?
I believe it's your personal conviction that there is no God, and therefore, scripture that claims divine source is baseless.
What else?
It's quite the same as the believers of another religion.

I have, and I will continue to do so. Are you honestly proposing here that we have to differ to peoples own opinions of their fantasies? Meh, no dice. I can give you a place from which to judge the relative levels of ignorance in any given belief system, in fact you are standing in that place right now. That place is called factual reality.

You think that my criticisms of scripture arise from a conviction that there is no god? LOL, I think you've elevated the god question to a place far above it's importance in how I form my opinions. Scripture is baseless, to me, when it attempts to coerce conformity by assertion. Which happens to be just about all of the time. In this way both scripture and your friends taboo-making are equals.