I understand it. Been through it. It makes things seem true. It makes what you believe seem beautiful and sacred. It makes you feel you know it a certain manner. It gives you peace. It has a certain pleasurable taste to it.

And for that, I understand, where the religious people are coming from.

You knock and you receive. I asked God to give me guidance as a Muslim and it felt that God responded. It feels like God listens to your prayers.

You feel a holy bond with your brethren. They seem to be good people, while those nasty people whom oppose them seem to be bad insincere people.

It gives you strength and direction.

It's very powerful feeling. It's belief stronger then most beliefs.

The leaders of your sect seem wise and pious. The leaders of other sects feel like fools and deluded.

Disbelief feels terrifying and evil. It feels like it's the worst thing that can happen to you. It feels like it would be loosing the greatest treasure you have.

And for that, I don't blame you.

I'm not angry at myself for having been deluded for so long. So I am not upset at people from being deluded either.

I am going to advice the one thing Prophet Mohammad advised his people (see Suratal Saba): "Rise up and ponder, by yourself and in groups"

Easy to believe you thought things through. You have to reinvestigate your thoughts over and over again. You have to try to see arguments that would falsify your strong beliefs.

If your Christian, you believe this is true of all others, right? That they should rise up, and seek the truth. Ponder, search the depth of their minds/souls. Try to be honest with themselves. Not sastify themselves with their deluded beliefs.

Same if your Muslim.

And for that we are in agreement. But let's not be hypocrites. Do what you expect from others.

Muslims, you expect Atheists do ponder over the signs in the heavens and the earth, and in their "souls". You expect them to ponder over the verses of Quran and ponder over it's wisdom. You expect them to sincerely take the Quran miracle seriously.

You expect polytheists too rise up against their people's delusions and propaganda.

Whatever you think they should go through constantly, investigating and re-investigating, the same should be of you.

Don't have double standards.

(October 26, 2012 at 8:25 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I am going to advice the one thing Prophet Mohammad advised his people (see Suratal Saba): "Rise up and ponder, by yourself and in groups"

Clearly Mohammad was a better man than the man who wrote this biblical passage:
Proverb 3:5-6 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.

It basically tells you not to think for yourself.

As a species, we are very good at deluding ourselves.

I like you Mystic. It's interesting to watch you go through this journey, and I admire your openness and sincerity. Did you ever get an answer to the question "If a muslim does a good thing, and a non-believer does the exact same thing, did the non-believer do a good thing"?

(October 27, 2012 at 8:51 am)Tino Wrote: I like you Mystic. It's interesting to watch you go through this journey, and I admire your openness and sincerity. Did you ever get an answer to the question "If a muslim does a good thing, and a non-believer does the exact same thing, did the non-believer do a good thing"?

Yeah the argument from their perspective goes like this. If you are acting according to the inner guidance, your deeds are of value. Since it's part of the nature to believe in God, if you don't come across Islam, and believe in God and follow morality (inner guidance), then your deeds are worthy. However if you come across Islam, and reject it, you are going against your inner guidance, and hence your actions are unworthy.

I guess it can be similar from their perspective to if a person rapes his daughter but still gives her food and does other things that are "good". Those deeds are not really have a "good" nature, when his nature is that evil. Since from their perspective, we are being severely unjust by disbelieving, our good actions are of no worth, without submitting to guidance.

(October 26, 2012 at 8:25 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I am going to advice the one thing Prophet Mohammad advised his people (see Suratal Saba): "Rise up and ponder, by yourself and in groups"

Easy to believe you thought things through. You have to reinvestigate your thoughts over and over again. You have to try to see arguments that would falsify your strong beliefs.

OK.

Ponder this.

You posted this on an atheist board.

That atheist board attempts to make arguments that would falsify theists' beliefs.

So, those who see your post are going out in search of arguments that might falsify their beliefs.

(October 27, 2012 at 11:12 am)John V Wrote:

(October 26, 2012 at 8:25 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I am going to advice the one thing Prophet Mohammad advised his people (see Suratal Saba): "Rise up and ponder, by yourself and in groups"

Easy to believe you thought things through. You have to reinvestigate your thoughts over and over again. You have to try to see arguments that would falsify your strong beliefs.

OK.

Ponder this.

You posted this on an atheist board.

That atheist board attempts to make arguments that would falsify theists' beliefs.

So, those who see your post are going out in search of arguments that might falsify their beliefs.

This is true. I guess I'm preaching to the choir

But while I was Muslim, I use to visit Atheist forums. All the arguments they come up with against Islam where either subjective or invalid arguments or unsound arguments. The same is true of Christians (and Christians are really obsessed with disproving Islam).

The youtube videos about contradictions of Quran are also filled with solvable contradictions.

I had to find arguments against Islam/Quran that no Atheist came up with that I was aware of at least from researching.

Sometimes also if we come up with the reasoning ourselves, we are more inclined to accept it.

So don't just rely on others to debunk your arguments. I would say you yourself have to "think" about arguments that would debunk your beliefs.

Muslims have believed in Quran is without contradictions and errors, perhaps primarily because they rely on others to show it has some.

But in essence, you are right, I am preaching to those following this already.

But Rayaan came debating with Atheists (in beginning look at his threads and posts, I time to time pick a member and just go through some of their old posts). They didn't disprove his religion.

So if you just rely on others...to prove you wrong...well people don't care as much to guide you to the truth as you should care to guide yourself to the truth.

---

Another example is the recent Hindu in our midst. Most of us have no idea about Hindu texts, we cannot really show he is wrong. The best person to debunk his own beliefs is himself. Of course it takes a struggle to overcome bias and delusions. But it can always be done.

(October 27, 2012 at 5:30 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: As a species, we are very good at deluding ourselves.

Meh. Failure is just the downside of gaussian distribution of fitness in an evolved life form.

(October 26, 2012 at 8:25 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: You expect polytheists too rise up against their people's delusions and propaganda.

Whatever you think they should go through constantly, investigating and re-investigating, the same should be of you.

Don't have double standards.

That is exactly why I made my "Islamophobes" thread.