(October 29, 2012 at 7:13 am)Brakeman Wrote:

(October 29, 2012 at 1:09 am)Godschild Wrote: The Holy Spirit lives within us, go study scripture and stop asking childish questions.

Typical childish theist response to ignore the two difficult questions of "How could god change his previously perfect plans due to prayer" and "does god actually speak to you", to focus on the joke question about ghosts. But hey, I'll play along. Since you seem to know scripture so well, how is the ghost described in 1 Samuel chapter 28:7-25? Do you see any Theological problems with that ghost?
Anyway, if you say that the holy spirit lies within you, where exactly does it reside? Is it your kidneys? Jesus thought that your soul resided in one's kidneys. Do you agree with that? Or are you one that believes that the blood pumping organ, the heart, is where the soul and holy spirit can reside? (hint- It wasn't until modern times that we knew that the brain was the source of our conscientiousness, the bible writer's didn't know that! Hence their use of "searching one's reins. {Kidneys})

How do you know when the holy spirit has entered your kidneys/heart/brain, if you insist that he is not a visible apparition?
In ACTS 19 there were christians who believed in jesus, but had not yet received the holy spirit. Turns out they had a faulty baptism and had to be rebaptised. Do any of your flock need to be rebaptised? If they can't feel the holy spirit in their kidneys, then they had better try that....or beer!

First thing you assume you know God's perfect plan and how He works it, and you do not.
God speaks to use through the Spirit, since you do not know how that works the Spirit does not reside in you. You must be quite dull minded to believe Christians think the Holy Spirit reside in the kidneys, mind or heart.
The Holy Spirit is a being which can move into our being and aid us in our daily lives.
Playing apparently is all you know, typically childish.

Now to answer some other questions. I find nothing wrong theologically with 1st Sam. 28:7-25.

Nephros (Greek) does mean kidney, but is used metaphorically to mean the inmost mind (self).
Kilyah (Hebrew) also means kidney, but is used metaphorically to mean the mind, innermost self.
You see when Christ searches, it is the innermost being of man, that which makes the moral choice, man's spirit.

For acts 19, the baptism the people were baptized into was John's baptism, Paul baptized them into Christ the Lord Jesus, because only Jesus can save.
Tell you what, you want to know what the Holy Spirit is like, become a believer in Christ and you can find out, would that not be the scientific thing to do, experience it first hand. I mean scientist believe there is dark matter and dark energy and they have not nor can they see it or prove it exist.
Now a question for you, tell me why is it that when one loses a loved one, a wife,husband, girlfriend ect. do you not get a head ache, instead you ache (feel the hurt) in one's chest. Why is it that when one is sad they feel the sadness in their chest, by your statement one should get a terrible head ache.

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(October 29, 2012 at 12:50 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Is it so very necessary to have a knowledge of scripture to ask questions? How else can one learn anything? A more cynical person then I might get the impression that it's the asking of questions that is so feared by the theist, especially given the Olympic-standard gymnastics involved in evading them.

To ask responsible questions one needs to know something, and the questions asked by most here are cynical, most here are not interested in learning what the Christians here know.

(October 29, 2012 at 4:34 pm)Godschild Wrote: First thing you assume you know God's perfect plan and how He works it, and you do not.

Don't a lot of theists tend to tell us we have it all wrong, thus implying that they know what's going on?

(October 29, 2012 at 4:34 pm)Godschild Wrote: God speaks to use through the Spirit, since you do not know how that works the Spirit does not reside in you.

How can the holy spirit not reside in someone?

(October 29, 2012 at 4:34 pm)Godschild Wrote: You must be quite dull minded to believe Christians think the Holy Spirit reside in the kidneys, mind or heart.
The Holy Spirit is a being which can move into our being and aid us in our daily lives.
Playing apparently is all you know, typically childish.

Now to answer some other questions. I find nothing wrong theologically with 1st Sam. 28:7-25.

Nephros (Greek) does mean kidney, but is used metaphorically to mean the inmost mind (self).
Kilyah (Hebrew) also means kidney, but is used metaphorically to mean the mind, innermost self.

How can you know this for a fact? How do you know that the holy spirit doesn't actually reside in the space where the kidney is?

(October 29, 2012 at 4:34 pm)Godschild Wrote: You see when Christ searches, it is the innermost being of man, that which makes the moral choice, man's spirit.

For acts 19, the baptism the people were baptized into was John's baptism, Paul baptized them into Christ the Lord Jesus, because only Jesus can save.
Tell you what, you want to know what the Holy Spirit is like, become a believer in Christ and you can find out, would that not be the scientific thing to do, experience it first hand. I mean scientist believe there is dark matter and dark energy and they have not nor can they see it or prove it exist.
Now a question for you, tell me why is it that when one loses a loved one, a wife,husband, girlfriend ect. do you not get a head ache, instead you ache (feel the hurt) in one's chest. Why is it that when one is sad they feel the sadness in their chest, by your statement one should get a terrible head ache.

Most atheists were once believers, as was I. I didn't feel the holy spirit. As for your second statement, are you trying to argue that the heart is the literal source of emotion? In fact, your example would show just why there isn't a holy spirit. If people can have an emotional experience translate into something physical independent of belief in god, independent of 'the holy spirit', does this not demonstrate that any feeling attributed to 'the holy spirit' is most likely self delusion?

Quote:You must be quite dull minded to believe Christians think the Holy Spirit reside in the kidneys, mind or heart.

In your case it resides in your asshole.

(October 29, 2012 at 4:34 pm)Godschild Wrote: First thing you assume you know God's perfect plan and how He works it, and you do not.

Ds Wrote:Don't a lot of theists tend to tell us we have it all wrong, thus implying that they know what's going on?

We say this because it's true, duh. Those of us who stay in a serious relationship with Him have a better understanding through the Holy Spirit.

(October 29, 2012 at 4:34 pm)Godschild Wrote: God speaks to use through the Spirit, since you do not know how that works the Spirit does not reside in you.

Ds Wrote:How can the holy spirit not reside in someone?

The Holy Spirit only resides in those who accept Christ for their savior, if you once knew Christ in this way you should not have to ask this question, should you?

(October 29, 2012 at 4:34 pm)Godschild Wrote: You must be quite dull minded to believe Christians think the Holy Spirit reside in the kidneys, mind or heart.
The Holy Spirit is a being which can move into our being and aid us in our daily lives.
Playing apparently is all you know, typically childish.

Now to answer some other questions. I find nothing wrong theologically with 1st Sam. 28:7-25.

Nephros (Greek) does mean kidney, but is used metaphorically to mean the inmost mind (self).
Kilyah (Hebrew) also means kidney, but is used metaphorically to mean the mind, innermost self.

Ds Wrote:How can you know this for a fact? How do you know that the holy spirit doesn't actually reside in the space where the kidney is?

The Holy Spirit lives in me, that's how I know, what happened to you. The Holy Spirit being spirit lives anywhere within me He desires, I assume in the whole of the body.

(October 29, 2012 at 4:34 pm)Godschild Wrote: You see when Christ searches, it is the innermost being of man, that which makes the moral choice, man's spirit.

For acts 19, the baptism the people were baptized into was John's baptism, Paul baptized them into Christ the Lord Jesus, because only Jesus can save.
Tell you what, you want to know what the Holy Spirit is like, become a believer in Christ and you can find out, would that not be the scientific thing to do, experience it first hand. I mean scientist believe there is dark matter and dark energy and they have not nor can they see it or prove it exist.
Now a question for you, tell me why is it that when one loses a loved one, a wife,husband, girlfriend ect. do you not get a head ache, instead you ache (feel the hurt) in one's chest. Why is it that when one is sad they feel the sadness in their chest, by your statement one should get a terrible head ache.

Ds Wrote: Most atheists were once believers, as was I. I didn't feel the holy spirit. As for your second statement, are you trying to argue that the heart is the literal source of emotion? In fact, your example would show just why there isn't a holy spirit. If people can have an emotional experience translate into something physical independent of belief in god, independent of 'the holy spirit', does this not demonstrate that any feeling attributed to 'the holy spirit' is most likely self delusion?

How do you know most atheist were once believers, I find that hard to believe, what I would believe, most were pretenders for some reason or the other.
See you fail to read all my statement, I have already answered, that I nor most Christians believe the emotional center is in the heart, how childish. I also was not trying to say that the Holy Spirit was the cause of emotional experiences, some related to God yes, but not all. I asked for an answer to my question and you dodge around it by making such an absurd claim. The Holy Spirit resides in believers as a counselor, as our way of hearing God the Father and Christ the savior and since you never heard God, then you did not have the Holy Spirit and without the Holy Spirit no salvation.

I thought you were going to respond to my statement in the other post, yet you're here jumping in the middle of this conversation.

(October 29, 2012 at 4:34 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(October 29, 2012 at 12:50 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Is it so very necessary to have a knowledge of scripture to ask questions? How else can one learn anything? A more cynical person then I might get the impression that it's the asking of questions that is so feared by the theist, especially given the Olympic-standard gymnastics involved in evading them.

To ask responsible questions one needs to know something, and the questions asked by most here are cynical, most here are not interested in learning what the Christians here know.

Hmm. "Responsible" questions? Really? Isn't the whole point of questions to acquire information? That's generally how conversations work, one side offers information, the other side responds by expanding on that information, supplying further information or eliciting clarifications of the shared information in the form of questions. What, then, counts as an irresponsible question to you? My hypothetical cynic might say it is either one which you cannot answer but don't wish to admit it, or one for which the answer threatens uncomfortable, even dubiously defensible, implications for your position.

Basically, if you don't know the answer to what may, upon consideration, be difficult or uncomfortable questions, there's no shame in admitting it and in point of fact such an admission would be perfectly laudable, possibly earning you mucho kudos from what, in the context of these discussions, are traditionally your opponents.

Finally, by what criteria are you dismissing certain questions as cynical? They might have cynical motives behind them, I'll grant you that. However, bombastic posturing in lieu of answering them is playing straight into the hands of such questioners, not to mention playing up to common stereotypes.

I'll leave the irony of your final statement to the rest of the wolfpack. They don't get fed much, poor things.

What I'm wondering is what's the point of discussing the "benefits" of having this "Holy Spirit" thing if this "Holy Spirit" thing is described in a book that is erroneous? I'll save you from the circular reasoning that has been previously used to justify the Bible + HS by stating that you can't say the HS within you is proof that the Bible is true because the HS is a concept derived from the Bible, therefore meaning you can't use the thing you're trying to prove.

In any other context a person who claims that another entity "resides" inside of them, and even more curiously "counsels" them somehow would be grounds for psychiatric evaluation -at the very least-. Is the spirit inside of you the source of your intuitions about the beliefs of others. Does it tell you that people who do not follow it's "counsel" are/were pretenders? What does this entity counsel you about, how often is it's advice instrumental in your decisions? If you and this entity disagreed on something, would you plow through that and take the course of action you felt was appropriate or defer to it's authority?

lowly backs away:

(cynical enough?)

That was one of the points that came up at the Reason Rally, when Eric Hovind admitted that people in psychiatric hospitals who claimed to hear voices were delusional, yet he knew his relationship with Jesus is real because he talks to 'Him' all the time. If only we could harness the power of cognitive dissonace, it'd be goodbye world energy crisis.

(October 30, 2012 at 3:32 am)Godschild Wrote:

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(October 29, 2012 at 4:43 pm)Darkstar Wrote:

(October 29, 2012 at 4:34 pm)Godschild Wrote: First thing you assume you know God's perfect plan and how He works it, and you do not.

Ds Wrote:Don't a lot of theists tend to tell us we have it all wrong, thus implying that they know what's going on?

We say this because it's true, duh. Those of us who stay in a serious relationship with Him have a better understanding through the Holy Spirit.

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Only if we presuppose that the holy spirit exists, If we don't then it's just hypocrisy.

(October 30, 2012 at 3:32 am)Godschild Wrote:

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(October 29, 2012 at 4:34 pm)Godschild Wrote: God speaks to use through the Spirit, since you do not know how that works the Spirit does not reside in you.

Ds Wrote:How can the holy spirit not reside in someone?

The Holy Spirit only resides in those who accept Christ for their savior, if you once knew Christ in this way you should not have to ask this question, should you?

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So...I think I've already explained how I once accepted Jesus but still didn't understand god.

(October 30, 2012 at 3:32 am)Godschild Wrote:

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(October 29, 2012 at 4:34 pm)Godschild Wrote: You must be quite dull minded to believe Christians think the Holy Spirit reside in the kidneys, mind or heart.
The Holy Spirit is a being which can move into our being and aid us in our daily lives.
Playing apparently is all you know, typically childish.

Now to answer some other questions. I find nothing wrong theologically with 1st Sam. 28:7-25.

Nephros (Greek) does mean kidney, but is used metaphorically to mean the inmost mind (self).
Kilyah (Hebrew) also means kidney, but is used metaphorically to mean the mind, innermost self.

Ds Wrote:How can you know this for a fact? How do you know that the holy spirit doesn't actually reside in the space where the kidney is?

The Holy Spirit lives in me, that's how I know, what happened to you. The Holy Spirit being spirit lives anywhere within me He desires, I assume in the whole of the body.

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Sure. I mean, the exact location is probably an inconsequential detail, but the point I'm trying to make is that you assume it is in your whole body when it could reside in the liver. I don't think either of us really know, but I'm just not sure how you know Jesus was being metaphorical.

(October 30, 2012 at 3:32 am)Godschild Wrote:

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(October 29, 2012 at 4:34 pm)Godschild Wrote: You see when Christ searches, it is the innermost being of man, that which makes the moral choice, man's spirit.

For acts 19, the baptism the people were baptized into was John's baptism, Paul baptized them into Christ the Lord Jesus, because only Jesus can save.
Tell you what, you want to know what the Holy Spirit is like, become a believer in Christ and you can find out, would that not be the scientific thing to do, experience it first hand. I mean scientist believe there is dark matter and dark energy and they have not nor can they see it or prove it exist.
Now a question for you, tell me why is it that when one loses a loved one, a wife,husband, girlfriend ect. do you not get a head ache, instead you ache (feel the hurt) in one's chest. Why is it that when one is sad they feel the sadness in their chest, by your statement one should get a terrible head ache.

Ds Wrote: Most atheists were once believers, as was I. I didn't feel the holy spirit. As for your second statement, are you trying to argue that the heart is the literal source of emotion? In fact, your example would show just why there isn't a holy spirit. If people can have an emotional experience translate into something physical independent of belief in god, independent of 'the holy spirit', does this not demonstrate that any feeling attributed to 'the holy spirit' is most likely self delusion?

How do you know most atheist were once believers, I find that hard to believe, what I would believe, most were pretenders for some reason or the other.
See you fail to read all my statement, I have already answered, that I nor most Christians believe the emotional center is in the heart, how childish. I also was not trying to say that the Holy Spirit was the cause of emotional experiences, some related to God yes, but not all. I asked for an answer to my question and you dodge around it by making such an absurd claim. The Holy Spirit resides in believers as a counselor, as our way of hearing God the Father and Christ the savior and since you never heard God, then you did not have the Holy Spirit and without the Holy Spirit no salvation.

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Yep, no true scotsman, right on cue. I don't know what the point of bringing up heartache in a literal sense was if you weren't trying to argue for some extranatural cause for it.

(October 30, 2012 at 3:32 am)Godschild Wrote: I thought you were going to respond to my statement in the other post, yet you're here jumping in the middle of this conversation.

Maybe I missed your other post; I'll go back and check.
EDIT: Not sure which post you are referring to, now as for the other question...

Godschild Wrote:Now a question for you, tell me why is it that when one loses a loved one, a wife,husband, girlfriend ect. do you not get a head ache, instead you ache (feel the hurt) in one's chest. Why is it that when one is sad they feel the sadness in their chest, by your statement one should get a terrible head ache.

Ever heard of the phrase "mind over matter"? http://www.science20.com/variety_tap/sci...reak-33900

Also, I don't know how my statement implied there should be headache (unless we are thinking of a different statement).

@ Darkstar, the deeper you get into this conversation the more foolish you are making yourself look. All that matters to you is controversy, you care not about learning anything you can be cynical about you will.

Stimbo you want cynical well here he is.