(December 9, 2012 at 8:39 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote:

(December 9, 2012 at 8:01 pm)Al-Fatihah Wrote: The challenge is:

"It is humanly impossible for a person/s to inspire enough people to follow him/her to conquer a nation by using humanmande speech/literature that goes against the likes and beliefs of those people."

This must be the Muslim analog to the "would-they-have-died-for-a-lie" argument often used by Christians.

The argument, such as it is, follows a similar pattern of heavy reliance on the folklore of the religion combined with an argument from incredulity or "I can't imagine why people would act this way unless something supernatural had happened."

The problems with both arguments are similar:

1. You're using folklore to prove mythology. The details of early Christian persecution are likely exaggerated or outright fabricated by the victorious church. How reliable is the history of Muhammad's ministry and the ascendant Islamic faith? My understanding is this history is largely reliant on folklore and oral traditions.

2. Even if it were so, such things do happen with no supernatural activity. Crazy cults form that convince people to give up their beliefs, their money, their family and even their lives. It happens all the time even today.

3. The argument from incredulity is a logical fallacy. Is this the best evidence you can offer?

By the way, I was just visited by an angel who told me we live in a natural universe governed by predictable laws best understood through science and reason. God wants us to stop believing in religious nonsense and instead use science to find the answers. You can't prove that didn't just happen and I'm an honest man so I wouldn't just make that up.

Response: In other words, you can't disprove the challenge, since after all this time, you still haven't attempted it. The challenge does not state what you stated above, but says for YOU YOURSELF to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation, or even just the street you live on, by using human-made speech/literatue that goes against the wants of a mass of people, as proof that such an act is humanly possible. So have you conquered a nation? NO. Have you conquered the street you live on? NO. Thus you've done absolutely nothing in answering the challenge and have been dodging it from the beginning. Thus your ducking and dodging to attempt the challenge once again confirms your denial to the fact that the qur'an is the true word of Allah

(December 9, 2012 at 8:43 pm)Al-Fatihah Wrote:

(December 9, 2012 at 8:34 pm)Darkstar Wrote: Can you read!?! You are relying on hearsay that the challenge was fulfilled by Muhammud himself! You say it is impossible to do, so how do you know Muhammud ever did it!?!

Response: Yet at no time have I ever stated that it's true because someone said so, but shown that it's true because the challenge provides a hands-on eyewitness account of so. Thus your argument fails again.

You JUST said that eye-witness accounts are useless!

Al-Fatihah Wrote:And if asked of what proof you have that Hitler or any of the people answered the challenge, your answer is "because a book says so", which any reasonable person can see is not proof. For saying so is not proof that it is so.

You discount both eyewitnesses and historians in one swoop here! I guess Christians don't have a monopoly on hypocrisy...

(December 9, 2012 at 8:35 pm)Al-Fatihah Wrote:

(December 9, 2012 at 8:27 pm)Darkstar Wrote: Y-you do realize that...th-that your whole argument, that Muhammud even ever existed i-is based on something in a book that has far less documentation than a history book, r-right? *shudders*

Response: Not at all. Even so, the Qur'an can be proven as th true word of Allah from anhands-on eyewitness account as the challenge provides, while your alleged evidence cannot.

(December 9, 2012 at 8:27 pm)Darkstar Wrote: So what? Do you think no one here has been to a Christian forum before? You think this forum is our entire life?

Response: It doesn't matter to me if it was.

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(December 9, 2012 at 8:31 pm)Creed of Heresy Wrote: And all you have as evidence is a book. Which you have said is not evidence.

So all you have is hot air as evidence, yourself.

Debunked. As usual.

Response: To the contrary, your own ducking and dodging to answer the qur'an challenge supports the fact that the Qur'an is true. Otherwise, you would have answered the challenge by now. Debunked as susual.

You really don't know where you stand and right now you think you have us corned, your own stupidity blinds you to the fact we have destroyed every argument you have yet you insist that we have not, you really are clearly deluded and there is no cure for it. Hard evidence is not going to sway you, you have your book that's all you need, despite it being wrong about everything, we understand. We have Christians on here that are like you. Impossible to educate as you mind is so close and your head so far up your own arse it's impossible to reverse.

(December 9, 2012 at 8:39 pm)Creed of Heresy Wrote: Ok, for one thing, stop reposting the same thing over and over again as if it's some magic bullet...because it isn't, and simply saying something repeatedly does not make it fact...it just makes it repetitious. It's still unsubstantiated, and you did not address my point that your own claim are from nothing more than a book as well. I will assume your silence on the matter means you are keenly aware of the truth of my words and are choosing to attempt misdirection.

You also neglected to notice that I stated "historians" AS WELL AS "eyewitness accounts from still-living men who saw for themselves Hitler's rise to power." There are also visually-documented features, hundreds if not thousands, of Hitler's rise to power, how he did it, what he did, etc.

Nothing of my argument has been debunked. You have not refuted anything I have stated, only thrown up smokescreens to obfuscate what has been said.

At this point you can either practice that thing that your holy book demands (humility, modesty) and admit your argument has been torn asunder, or you can bring up an actually valid point. OR, the third option, you can have no grace, dignity, humility, or modesty at all and pretend like I never said anything and completely negate yourself not just in our eyes but in the eyes of your own god.

What's it gonna be?

Response: To the contrary, it's substantiated by the fact that you keep ducking and dodging from answering the challenge. A clear reaction that stems from the fact that you know you can't do it, thus suorting the fact that the challenge proves that the Qur'an is from Allah. Debunked again.

(December 9, 2012 at 8:46 pm)Al-Fatihah Wrote: The challenge does not state what you stated above, but says for YOU YOURSELF to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation, or even just the street you live on, by using human-made speech/literatue that goes against the wants of a mass of people, as proof that such an act is humanly possible.

Two words for you: Justin Bieber. Obviously I'm stretching the word 'human' way beyond safety tolerances, but still. Or if you don't like that - and who could blame you? - try The Beatles.

(December 9, 2012 at 8:48 pm)Al-Fatihah Wrote: Response: To the contrary, it's substantiated by the fact that you keep ducking and dodging from answering the challenge. A clear reaction that stems from the fact that you know you can't do it, thus suorting the fact that the challenge proves that the Qur'an is from Allah. Debunked again.

Are you some kind of electronic toy? "Six different sayings in all!"
So if we say Hitler did the challenge, how is that dodging? You're the one dodging by claiming that we are, rather than answering the question. Can you prove that Muhammud succeeded in the challenge or can't you?

(December 9, 2012 at 8:40 pm)Darkstar Wrote: Again, CAN-YOU-READ? You claim the challenge cannot be answered by human words. I am asking you to prove that Muhammud himself was able to answer the challenge. And I stand by the fact that people today won't fall for it. My evidence? They haven't fallen for it yet.

Response: Unless you are suggesting that Muhammad did not conquer arabia and did not use the Qur'an to inspire his followers, then there is no need to present such evidence because you already are confirming it.

(December 9, 2012 at 8:51 pm)Al-Fatihah Wrote:

(December 9, 2012 at 8:40 pm)Darkstar Wrote: Again, CAN-YOU-READ? You claim the challenge cannot be answered by human words. I am asking you to prove that Muhammud himself was able to answer the challenge. And I stand by the fact that people today won't fall for it. My evidence? They haven't fallen for it yet.

Response: Unless you are suggesting that Muhammad did not conquer arabia and did not use the Qur'an to inspire his followers, then there is no need to present such evidence because you already are confirming it.

Sure, let's say I'm suggesting that. Please prove that he did.

(December 9, 2012 at 8:51 pm)Darkstar Wrote:

(December 9, 2012 at 8:51 pm)Al-Fatihah Wrote: Response: Unless you are suggesting that Muhammad did not conquer arabia and did not use the Qur'an to inspire his followers, then there is no need to present such evidence because you already are confirming it.

Sure, let's say I'm suggesting that. Please prove that he did.

And while your at it please prove he exists.