This is the type of discussion that just got me banned from another islamic forum

This is me trying to tell a muslim that the word day means 24 hours in english as en expression of a time period and then being banned

Quote:Ron
administrator

Re: God created the world in 7 days
Wow, even in English...

None of these definitions contradict the meaning 24 hours.
Let's see:

1. Depending on where you are the hours of light time vary. This doesn't mean we don't accept them as 24 hours, it's that the definition isn't as decisive. So it technically does contradict it.

2. It says rotation of "A" planet and obviously earth is the only one in our solar system that rotates in 24 hours. So again, it does contradict.

4. Potential to argue but I'll let this one go.

5. Really? In "grandfather's 24 hours"?

6. Seriously, won the "24 hours"?

7. Let's see is a work "day" 24 hours? What about a school day?

You have no appreciation for language.

THE NEXT BIT IS ME TYPING - PAULPABLO

Re: God created the world in 7 days
1 the first is the definition is of the day time and day light, you could ask somone when is the day time and they would obviously say sometime in the hours of light during a day, but still if you asked somone how long a day was they would say 24 hours.

2 We are on the planet earth, so no one talking to people on earth would say "i made this in seven days, oh i meant seven days on the planet pluto"

5 grandfathers day does last 24 hours

6 won the day is an idiomatic expression but it still means had the biggest victory of the past 24 hours of the allocated day

7 a work day is a work day a school day is a school day, if the bible or koran had said work day or school day you might have a point but it doesnt. ------------------------------------


1a : the time of light between one night and the next b : daylight 1 c : daytime
2: the period of rotation of a planet (as earth) or a moon on its axis
3: the mean solar day of 24 hours beginning at mean midnight
4: a specified day or date
5: a specified time or period : age <in grandfather's day> —often used in plural <the old days> <the days of sailing ships>
6: the conflict or contention of the day <played hard and won the day>
7: the time established by usage or law for work, school, or business .

Which one of these definitions do you think is best applied to the statement made in the quran here?
1 god created the heaven and the earth in 6 daytimes
2 he created the heaven and the earth in 6 rotations of the earth on its axis
3 six days, each day equal to 24 hour time periods
4 six specific dates which makes no sense
5 he created the world in 6 grandfathers days
6 idiomatic expression has nothing to do with what were talking about
7 he created the world in 6 working days

Considering he was making this statement specifically to humans, in a human language to people who lived in the middle east around 2000 years ago, and considering that they for all this time have understood that word to mean 24 hours.
Its only now that science has proven the bible and the quran and the torah stories of creation to be a myth that these religions are changing their stories to fit in with what science has proven

Or maybe the quran is wrong and is being bailed out again by saying "this word means many things in arabic and the translators got it wrong all this time"
just like when people uses excuses about the wife beating verse saying beat doesnt mean beat, just like when people make excuses for the quran saying man was created from between the backbone and ribs saying backbone doesnt mean backbone and ribs doesnt mean ribs, now we come to the point where day doesnt mean day.
The original translators have a lot to answer for if they managed to get all these verses wrong.

Also ive lost count of the amount of times you have said i dont know what im talking about, and that im wrong, without actually showing me where im wrong or providing evidence to the contrary, if you can show me definitions of the arabic word for day and show me how its used in the quran then i will completely admit im wrong, but as for how the word day is used in english ive been using english for 28 years, my entire life, and i know how the word day is used in order to express a period of time by now.

THE NEXT PART IS A QUOTE FROM THE QURAN POSTED BY ME
Sahih International
Indeed, your Lord is Allah , who created the heavens and earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne. He covers the night with the day, [another night] chasing it rapidly; and [He created] the sun, the moon, and the stars, subjected by His command. Unquestionably, His is the creation and the command; blessed is Allah , Lord of the worlds.
Muhsin Khan
Indeed your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in Six Days, and then He Istawa (rose over) the Throne (really in a manner that suits His Majesty). He brings the night as a cover over the day, seeking it rapidly, and (He created) the sun, the moon, the stars subjected to His Command. Surely, His is the Creation and Commandment. Blessed be Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists)!
Pickthall
Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then mounted He the Throne. He covereth the night with the day, which is in haste to follow it, and hath made the sun and the moon and the stars subservient by His command. His verily is all creation and commandment. Blessed be Allah, the Lord of the Worlds!
Yusuf Ali
Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority): He draweth the night as a veil o'er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession: He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, (all) governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds!
Shakir
Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods of time, and He is firm in power; He throws the veil of night over the day, which it pursues incessantly; and (He created) the sun and the moon and the stars, made subservient by His command; surely His is the creation and the command; blessed is Allah, the Lord of the worlds.
Dr. Ghali
Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days. Thereafter He leveled Himself upon the Throne (How He did so is beyond human understanding). He envelops the daytime (with) the night, (which) seeks it out promptly, and the sun, and the moon, and the stars are subjected to His Command. Verily, to Him (belong) the creation and the Command. Supremely Blessed be Allah, The Lord of the worlds.

Verily, your Lord is God who created the heavens and the earth in six days; then He made for the Throne. He covers night with the day - it pursues it incessantly - and the sun and the moon and the stars are subject to His bidding. Aye!- His is the creation and the bidding,- blessed be God the Lord of the worlds!

THIS NEXT PART IS JUST ME TYPING

These are 7 independent translations of the quran from arabic to english, all of them using the word day, not age, not unspecific time period, not anything else but day.
Only one of them mentions the word period of time, which could mean anything
And if you know of a different way the english word day could be used within this frame work let me know. If you know the arabic word has been translated wrongly here then you should get in touch with the english translators because all 7 of them and more are getting it wrong. Reply With Quote .

THIS NEXT PART IS RON THE ADMISTRATOR FOR THE ISLAMIC WEBSITE

Quote:Ron admistrator
People like you come and go. If you were sincere I would be happy to have a discussion with you. However, the fact the you would try to manipulate the dictionary with its definitions and examples that explicitly contradict your assertion makes me believe you have no interest in a real and honest discussion. It's sad that in 28 years you haven't learned but only one form of the word "day" to only mean 24 hours. You will never admit you are wrong because you've been shown to be wrong; you even take on subjects like the Arabic language and know nothing about it but insist on challenging.

Anyway, I've wasted enough time...you've had your day (use it as you please)...but now it's over because trolls are not welcome...

In islamic forums using the dictionary is considered word manipulation.
Im willing to admit that the word days can be used in a different context for example "in the days of shakespear" to mean an era or unspecific time period, but if you were to say the 6 days of shakespear this in my mind would be six, twenty four hour time periods of shakespear.

Also id just like to add that muslims do admit the word "ayyam" means days in arabic if it is proving their point about mathmatic mirracles within the quran, the word ayyam is supposedly mentioned 30 times in the quran which is supposed to amount to the number of days per month

By the way i know the quran doesnt say god created the world in 7 days as the thread is titled, somone else started the thread not me.

Can you do some formatting of that post? It seems like you've just copy / pasted off a website. Please make it clear who said what, and get rid of the unnecessary "Join date" bits.

Ok i think i made it clearer, there was so much to copy and paste i forgot to make parts clear

The arabic word يوم (ywm) means day or age. “يوم yaum pl. ايام ayyam day; pl. also: age, era, time…” I think is very simple really.
In this context the Qur’an declares.

ٱللَّهُ ٱلَّذِي خَلَقَ ٱلسَّمَٰوَٰتِ وَٱلأَرْضَ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا فِي سِتَّةِ أَيَّامٍ

“Allah is the One Who made skies and earth and what is in between in 6 ‘YAUM’.

From this verse and the verses quoted before, it is very clear that the creation and development of the universe occurred in 6 ‘YAUM’. ‘YAUM’ conventionally refers to 7 days of the week subject to the rise and setting of the sun. However, the Quranic concept of ‘YAUM’ is not the same as the one which is in common use for the following reasons:-

The Qur’an has used the word ‘YAUM’ for a variable length of time. For example is Surah Alsajda: V-5 immediately after the description of creation Allah says:
يُدَبِّرُ ٱلأَمْرَ مِنَ ٱلسَّمَآءِ إِلَى ٱلأَرْضِ ثُمَّ يَعْرُجُ إِلَيْهِ فِي يَوْمٍ كَانَ مِقْدَارُهُ أَلْفَ سَنَةٍ مِّمَّا تَعُدُّونَ

“He is the One Who plans everything from earth to heavens and then everything will reach Him in a day equivalent to 1000 years in your calculation.”

Similarly in AL-MAARIJ. V-4 “YAUM” is used to describe a period of 50000 years.

تَعْرُجُ ٱلْمَلاَئِكَةُ وَٱلرُّوحُ إِلَيْهِ فِي يَوْمٍ كَانَ مِقْدَارُهُ خَمْسِينَ أَلْفَ سَنَةٍ

“It will happen at a time when angels and Jibraeel will rise towards Him on a day equal to 50 thousand years.” (AL-MAARIJ, 70:1)

The phrase سِتَّةِ أَيَّام (six days or periods) is used for the duration of the creation of the sun, the earth and other heavenly bodies themselves. Obviously day and night as we see them could not exist before the existence of the Sun and the Earth.
So it is quite obvious that the Quranic meaning of ‘YAUM’ is “one period of time” which is of variable length. This could be equal to our millions or billions of years. This concept of ‘YAUM’ has also been accepted and used from the earlier interpreters of the Qur’an e.g.

(i) IMAM ABUSAUD ALAMADI (951 A.H.) in his interpretation of the Quran says that 6 days mean 6 periods of time, not our 6 days subject to the rise of the sun because at that time the earth and other planetary bodies did not exist.

(ii) IMAM RAGHIB ASFAHANI in his ‘AL-MUFRADAAT’ says ‘YAUM’ is used for time which has variable length.

(iii) ALLAMA ALUSI while describing the meaning of this verse of SURAH YUNUS used the same concept.

(iv) ABDULLAH BIN ABBAS, a companion of the Prophet (PBUH) is also quoted to have described that ‘YAUM’ is not like our days of the week.

So it is clear that the universe was created in 6 periods of time.

I dont understand classic arabic but if all that is true then why can i search the quran on the internet now and find at least 7 definitions that contradict what youre saying?

(January 10, 2013 at 4:15 am)paulpablo Wrote: I dont understand classic arabic but if all that is true then why can i search the quran on the internet now and find at least 7 definitions that contradict what youre saying?

Please show me them i'm always open to seeing. or is it the ones you posted earlier. For me its like ok what does yaum mean. go to dictionary: day, age, period of time. Ok lets look at how its used in the quran. yaum is used to refer to 1000 years and 50000 years showing it can mean a period of time.

Im also open to the fact that i might be wrong, but yes its the translations i showed you before

Quote:Sahih International
It is He who created the heavens and earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne. He knows what penetrates into the earth and what emerges from it and what descends from the heaven and what ascends therein; and He is with you wherever you are. And Allah , of what you do, is Seeing.
Muhsin Khan
He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and then Istawa (rose over) the Throne (in a manner that suits His Majesty). He knows what goes into the earth and what comes forth from it, what descends from the heaven and what ascends thereto. And He is with you (by His Knowledge) wheresoever you may be. And Allah is the All-Seer of what you do.
Pickthall
He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days; then He mounted the Throne. He knoweth all that entereth the earth and all that emergeth therefrom and all that cometh down from the sky and all that ascendeth therein; and He is with you wheresoever ye may be. And Allah is Seer of what ye do.
Yusuf Ali
He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in Six Days, and is moreover firmly established on the Throne (of Authority). He knows what enters within the earth and what comes forth out of it, what comes down from heaven and what mounts up to it. And He is with you wheresoever ye may be. And Allah sees well all that ye do.
Shakir
He it is who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, and He is firm in power; He knows that which goes deep down into the earth and that which comes forth out of it, and that which comes down from the heaven and that which goes up into it, and He is with you wherever you are; and Allah sees what you do.
Dr. Ghali
He is The One Who created the heavens and the earth in six days; thereafter He leveled Himself upon the Throne (How He did this is beyond human understanding). He knows whatever penetrates into the earth and whatever goes out of it, and whatever comes down from the heaven and whatever ascends (with difficulty) in it, and He is with you wherever you are; and Allah is Ever-Beholding whatever you do.

Now why would several people who understand arabic translate this to mean days?

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These are only a few translations, if you type "57:4 quran day" into google you will see many many islamic websites with the verse translated to mean day

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Also i know in english days can mean era or time period thats obvious, the old days, the says of shakespear, the early days of man. But these are unspecific periods of time, no one would say "the 6 early days of man" to mean the 6 stages of man or anything like that.
Days in and of itself can mean age, period of time, era whatever, but saying 6 days would never mean, at least in the english language, 6 eras 6 periods of time, 6 stages. But youre telling me it does mean this in arabic despite what the translators of the quran say?

(January 10, 2013 at 4:08 am)ThatMuslimGuy Wrote: So it is clear that the universe was created in 6 periods of time.

I am by no means any scholar of islam, but I'd like to address this one detail.
If it's meant as something as vague as "periods of time", why give it an amount?
6*(vague amount of time) == 1 * (some other vague amount of time)

Might say the Universe was made in one go which lasted .... some time.
Or it was made in 6 gos, each lasting an unknown and not equal amount of time.

Ambiguous and vague... Why are all religions guilty of this?

Quote:I am by no means any scholar of islam, but I'd like to address this one detail.
If it's meant as something as vague as "periods of time", why give it an amount?
6*(vague amount of time) == 1 * (some other vague amount of time)

thank you, that is exactly the point i was trying to make but i dont think i said it as clearly, althought i think the examples i gave brought some clarification.

Sorry was at college. Ive explained how yaum or ayaum has various meanings such as day, age, period of time. And in the Qur'an a specific yaum has been used to refer to a 1000 years and a yaum being 50,000 years showing that a yaum doesn't always specifically mean a 24 hour day. Whenever ive been in Islamic lectures the speaker who understands arabic always specifies if 6 "yaums" are mentioned that in arabic it can mean a day or a period of time. Ive been in lectures from graduates of Medina university in saudi arabia who have said this. And as they have studied in the one of the best islamic university's in the world and know Arabic fluently they obv understand arabic. The point is it doesnt say "Day" it says yaum or plural ayaum which can mean day,age,period of time.

In response to why refer to why give an amount. Because Allah is saying he created the universe in six stages.