(January 11, 2013 at 1:23 pm)Drich Wrote: The passage does not say God's law will never be altered. It says: "Not one letter of the law will pass away," until His kingdom comes.

Again the Law still applies, all of it. (Pay attention and ask questions about this next part because it is what most of you do not seem to get) Because Christ Fulfilled the Law (Lived a life without sin) and then was sacerficed, He was able to take our sin and wipe it clean. Meaning we no longer are bound to the law as away to obtain righteousness. We are now completely dependant of the grace offered by the blood sacerfice of Christ.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I do understand the idea that Jesus changed the way things operate, I just don't think y'all understand the implications of that. Which is why I asked about the morality of your god: does this then mean that there was a point in history where all of the awful things in the old testament were moral? And that the scale of what was moral changed at the crucifixion? Would that not say a lot about the mutability of god's moral stature? And that you're also advocating for divine command, and not any form of objective, divinely inspired moral values?

Quote:Which means Christian and non christian are the same till the final judgement (when His kingdom comes as being discussed in our passage.) We are both literal slaves to sin. One not being more 'moral' or worthy of heaven than the other. Heaven is not a prize to be won for the moral. Heaven is a place where those who want to spend an eternity with God can so do though the attonement offered through Christ's sacerfice. If the simply accept it.

With the alternative to heaven being an eternity in hell. That's... not much of a choice, really.

(January 9, 2013 at 11:57 pm)Drich Wrote:

(January 9, 2013 at 7:06 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Oh cmon, this is so transparent it's painful. Drich doesn't feel like walking around in a mono-blend sack-cloth avoiding shellfish - so the laws don't apply.

No again if any of you people could bring yourself to actually read the commentary that defines the term "fulfill the Law." It means that Chirst has fulfilled the law (Or live the sinless life,) and became the ultimate sacerfice. thus freeing us from the law as the only means to righteousness. Christ furthermore says He does not abolish the Law Meaning it still applies Until the end of this age. Where what happens? Judgement, the seperation of wheat and weeds/The sheep and Goats. (Believers and everyone else.) What makes a believer a beliver? The fact that He loves God with all of his being and simply accepts the attonement offered.

What does this mean? Christians like the rest of you are in sin all of the time, and do NOTHING worthy enough to make them righteous by the way of any deed that can be done by any of us. Which makes our entrance into Heaven a gift given by God so none of us can boast. One that none deserves! That is what the section in Mat 5 means when you account for everything written in the passage, and do not like cherry pick as you and your buddies here are Desperatly trying to do.

translated:

Quote:It means that Chirst has fulfilled the law (Or live the sinless life,) and became the ultimate sacerfice. thus freeing us from the law as the only means to righteousness.

Quote:Christ furthermore says He does not abolish the Law Meaning it still applies Until the end of this age.

Hmmm...

Drich Wrote:Those "deluded sentences" Are THE CORE OF CHRISTIANITY.

I rest my case.

1. jesus existed .. but to me he was just a fraud who just needed attention! i think he just had such a strong caracter .we all have at least one acqajbtance who is such a strong and convincing person whom everybody has to like and no matter what he is says you just believe him .. N i think jesus was exactly that kinda person.. in the past nobody had the chance to prove his statements about god or whether his ressurection..
why doesnt god send us a message to prove he exists like he did 2000 years ago? maybe he knows that nobody would believe a guy who claims to be sent by god?
that would be ridiculous .. would you believe such a person nowadays?
you surely would call him blasphemic and insane! 2000 years ago nobody had the courage and brains to question jesus and if he says the truth!
2. human believe in superstition, astrology etc (what IS proven to be humbug) so it is not a wonder that they believe in a supernarural creator.. it is human nature
that they create gods who answer their questions ! i am sure that i could establish my own religion. i just need a complex idea, many details and something that makes my religion attractive to others! christianity and islam are popular because they make people believe in afterlife! and human's greatest fear is death!!
if you are able to save them from death they will believe you no matter what!

(sorry my english is bad i know >.<)

(January 12, 2013 at 7:08 am)garbishcan Wrote: (sorry my english is bad i know >.<)

Where are you from? Create an introduction thread and tell us about yourself.

Welcome to our forum!

(January 11, 2013 at 10:36 pm)FallentoReason Wrote:

You can kill homos but don't kill homos.
You can stone your daughter, but don't stone your daughter
You can beat your slaves, but don't beat your slaves
You can ... but dont ...


Reading the Bible = what a fucking worthless waste of time.

(January 11, 2013 at 8:59 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: Wrong. The Church was killing non-believers so according to your cherry-picked NT canon they are now in eternal damnation. Hell yeah there's something to be feared, if the book was actually the truth of the cosmos.

Actually your wrong here. "The Book" says God is our ulitmate judge. Not the church or your understanding of the church or "The book." For example According to the darkages church no one but a member of the RC Chruch or rather what they consider to be 'christian' would enter heaven. This is what they taught and the reason for so much self righteous death and destruction. This teach is contary to what scripture teaches. Their will be 'non christians' in heaven. Their will be Non Roman catholics in heaven as well.

Quote:You confuse me with this moral relativism cop-out. I have my secular understanding of morality, you're meant to have your objective moral code from your god. Saying that back then it was ok to kill the innocent and now it isn't is simply being dishonest with yourself.

The act of killing has no intrinsic value in of itself (Man woman child baby deserving or not.) For Death is nothing more than a birth into eternity. What makes killing a sin is whether or nor God sanctioned the death or if someone took it upon themselves to kill outside of God's expressed will. Again the action of Rape, murder, genocide, smashing babies against rocks has no intrinsic righteous or unrighteous ascribed to them. What makes these actions sin/evil is when one does these things outside of the expressed will of God.

For Again, 'we' (humanity) are not judged on our works, but the condition of our hearts in relation to the acts we commit over our lives. In the other extream this same principle can be found at work in what Christ defines as luke warm Christians. Their lives can mirror down to the smallest act, the lives of men who are found righteous before God, but they themselves having spent a life dedicated or even mirroring the life of a righteous man and be 'unsaved.' Why? Because just like the man doing what you would consider "Immoral things" The acts in of themselves hold no value wiith God. Our righteousness rises or falls solely on the condition of our hearts.

Quote:John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Gawd demands that you believe in his scapegoat for a chance to cash in and win. No belief in him, no dice.

Is the dark ages Church Jesus? No. Can Christ be found outside of the dark ages church? Yes. Peter found Him, and so did Paul, barnabus, Timmothy and a host of other people. So again just because "the Church says X, does not mean God says X.

Quote:Out of curiosity, when did that hell experience happen to you?

Maybe 20 or so years ago +/-

Quote:No, the game is simple enough; convince the other side through reason. The problem is that I can't go back to doing mental backflips, strawmanning, moving the goal posts, red herrings... basically anything required to believe an ancient book has authority over my life.

This is perfect example that shows me that you have NO clue as to what Christianity is.

The Ancient book offers Freedom from authority, freedom from sin, freedom from the Law. Not that we won't sin any more. Because we do all of the time. We just do not have to follow the law as a way to obtain our righteousness.

---

(January 11, 2013 at 10:17 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Oh, don't get me wrong, I do understand the idea that Jesus changed the way things operate, I just don't think y'all understand the implications of that. Which is why I asked about the morality of your god: does this then mean that there was a point in history where all of the awful things in the old testament were moral?

Read the post to fallen to reason I answered this there. if you still have questions feel free to follow up.

Quote: And that the scale of what was moral changed at the crucifixion? Would that not say a lot about the mutability of god's moral stature? And that you're also advocating for divine command, and not any form of objective, divinely inspired moral values?

I have identified "morality" several times and can dig up links to threads where I go deeper into explaining it, if you need more info. In short. "Morality" is man's attempt to recreat the Perfect Righteousness of God to allow for the sins he finds he can not part with. God's Righteousness identifies all sin as the same, deserving the same punishment. "Morality" grades sin. Putting the sins man can easily obstain from as highly immoral and the harder everyday sin as almost a trivality. For instance Murder and rape are far more 'immoral' than gossiping or white lies. While infact God identifes these two as being the one He hates the most.

So in short Morality is a form of ' righteousness' found apart from God. Christ Identifies this righteousness as "Self righteousness." as it does not come from God but with in our own sense of right and wrong.

Meaning, Morality= Self righteousness. If this does not answer your question then rephrase incorperating this defination of morality into your question.

Quote:With the alternative to heaven being an eternity in hell. That's... not much of a choice, really.

God encompasses all that He has created, if you spend this life trying to put distance between yourself and God, then wouldn't an eternity in Heaven under His rule as His slave be worse? Hell is the seperation you seek from God in this life. How does the saying go, "Better to rule in Hell than to serve in Heaven?"

(January 10, 2013 at 6:37 pm)Drich Wrote: you need to go the atheist meetings more, or read alittle more of the post before you start to string your zingers together. The majority of your peers think I am a blood thirsty Christian because I make no appologies for dark ages christianity. But appearently for you i am not blood thirsty enough.
Which is it ?

Actually we just think you're silly.

You post nonsense post after nonsense post and don't seem to actually have any points at all.

For example, you post something you believe, we post something that refutes it, and all you do is just flip your belief around and post something else.

It's tiring reading your posts because literally there is no point in having a discussion with you, and i remember why talking to you was so tiring on af.com. You are about as disingenuous as they come.

You take your interpretation of the bible/scripture as the only interpretation, present it as fact (no evidence) and then go onto make a whole myriad of more nonsense up on top of it (see: post to FTR)

Also, this statement makes literally no sense either:

(January 10, 2013 at 6:37 pm)Drich Wrote: "The ancient book offers freedom from authority...sin....not that we wot sin anymore"

Please explain:

1. How we can be under a divine authority for eternity and yet be free from all authority
2. How we can be free from sin but keep sinning.

I await your tangential and verbose reply with an orgasmic sense of disappointment.

(January 12, 2013 at 3:53 pm)Fidel_Castronaut Wrote: Actually we just think you're silly.

You post nonsense post after nonsense post and don't seem to actually have any points at all.

For example, you post something you believe, we post something that refutes it, and all you do is just flip your belief around and post something else.

Then providing an example of this should be very easy for you to do. It would seem to me this would be a goto response to refute someone rather than inconsistant name calling.

Quote:It's tiring reading your posts because literally there is no point in having a discussion with you, and i remember why talking to you was so tiring on af.com. You are about as disingenuous as they come.

Again if I am the MOST disingenuous person you have ever come across then it should be easy for you to site examples, and legitmatly shut me down.. Rather than just alluding to generalities and appealing slandor. Again show me show all of us. Prove your accusations.

Quote:You take your interpretation of the bible/scripture as the only interpretation,

Show me where I have said this. Show me where I said My interpertation was the only one. I KNOW This to be slanderous remarks that maybe true about most christians, and you assume it is true about me as well. Allow me to burst you bubble. I have stated in this very thread that No one denomination (which are derived from various biblical interpertations.) has a lock on 'true christianity.' I have even gone so far as start my own thread and discuss this for 11 pages on this web site, and if I am not mistaken was discussed on the af.com website as well.

Your appeals to slander are falling apart. Did you see how that was done? I made an assertion and then backed it up with EVIDENCE. Oh,The Irony Here! the Christian who uses Evidence to trump something an atheist wants people to take on blind faith.

Quote:present it as fact (no evidence) and then go onto make a whole myriad of more nonsense up on top of it (see: post to FTR)

don't be afraid to be specific (unless you just making stuff us) Again, show me and allow me to clear things up for you.

Quote:Also, this statement makes literally no sense either:

This seems like a legitmate request so note I am approaching it differently than how I addressed the first 1/2 of your post.

(January 10, 2013 at 6:37 pm)Drich Wrote: "The ancient book offers freedom from authority...sin....not that we wot sin anymore"

Quote:Please explain:

1. How we can be under a divine authority for eternity and yet be free from all authority

I Did not say we are free from divine authority. I said we are free from Authority. Meaning we are free from the acts, rules, traditions, the heirarchy, everything that 'religion' and religious practices traditionally provided for us. We are free from the works and law of religious practice as a means to earn righteousness (or the state of being/quality of soul we must have to enter Heaven/be in God's presents.) Works are meaningless in of themselves. If we are no longer bound by religious tradition or ritual to cleans ourselves from sin then that makes us free from the authority of those who would administer these rights.

Which is how I can say that the church of the Dark ages is not Christ. as such has no say in who enters heaven and who is going to Hell. That 'judgement' is not for those who worship to a given formula to decide. that desision remains with God. He will decide who believes in His Son and Who is just going through the motions.

Christianity is not something we do. It is who we are at our cores.
Or so says Christ. I would go with what he says over that of a 1500 year old man who was known for wearing funny hats. That said if your into that, then that is between you and Christ.

Quote:2. How we can be free from sin but keep sinning.

Paul struggled with this very same issue. (And if the Apstole Paul could not stop sinning then what hope do any of us have?)
You REALLY Need to real All of Romans 7,(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=ERV) but here is the part that directly answers your question: Remember Paul is speaking to the Church at Rome about Himself.

The War Inside Us

14 We know that the law is spiritual, but I am not. I am so human. Sin rules me as if I were its slave. 15 I don’t understand why I act the way I do. I don’t do the good I want to do, and I do the evil I hate. 16 And if I don’t want to do what I do, that means I agree that the law is good. 17 But I am not really the one doing the evil. It is sin living in me that does it. 18 Yes, I know that nothing good lives in me—I mean nothing good lives in the part of me that is not spiritual. I want to do what is good, but I don’t do it. 19 I don’t do the good that I want to do. I do the evil that I don’t want to do. 20 So if I do what I don’t want to do, then I am not really the one doing it. It is the sin living in me that does it.

21 So I have learned this rule: When I want to do good, evil is there with me. 22 In my mind I am happy with God’s law. 23 But I see another law working in my body. That law makes war against the law that my mind accepts. That other law working in my body is the law of sin, and that law makes me its prisoner. 24 What a miserable person I am! Who will save me from this body that brings me death? 25 I thank God for his salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So in my mind I am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful self I am a slave to the law of sin.

Quote:I await your tangential and verbose reply with an orgasmic sense of disappointment.

You know in the furture if you have a legitmate question, you do not have to preface it with a slanderous attack. Just ask the question. that is unless you need to be taken apart line by line, to be made the fool publically. Or you could just send an PM if you do not want to be seen speaking with the enemy.. I do not keep a score card of who said what or who I need to get back at.