(January 23, 2013 at 7:26 pm)Drich Wrote: Side discussion: Free will is also the reason their can not be undenyable proof of God. Because undenyable proof ends our ablity to choose.

Not at all. Just because your god exists in no way requires that I worship him or play into his delusional, sadistic games.

The mere existence of your god does not mean he is worthy of worship: he definitely, definitely is not.

(January 24, 2013 at 12:19 am)Drich Wrote: If you know to be real without doubt, then you know everything He has told us would also be real without question.

Proving his existence proves nothing about any other claim.

Quote:If God took away the cloud you are allowed to live in now by giving you the proof you claim you need, most would spend the next fifty years going through the motions of religion, just to wind up in hell to forever wonder what you were doing there. As it is God hides from us till we seek Him out. This allows us to know who we are in relation to God. So whatever we choose for ourselves we know why and what to expect, thus allowing us to accept our fate.

Most people already do nothing except go through the motions. Having definitive proof would make it much easier to justify to one's self that total submission is worth the effort.

Quote:What if God used a dream like anyother to show me? Why would all powerful God not be allowed to use common dreams to give revelations? the bible seems to think this is a legitimate avenue for God to use to communicate.

What if he did? Dreams are about as unreliable a method of communication as can be imagined.

(January 24, 2013 at 12:19 am)Drich Wrote: As it is God hides from us till we seek Him out. This allows us to know who we are in relation to God. So whatever we choose for ourselves we know why and what to expect, thus allowing us to accept our fate.

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What if God used a dream like anyother to show me? Why would all powerful God not be allowed to use common dreams to give revelations? the bible seems to think this is a legitimate avenue for God to use to communicate.

If god only "shows up" when you're convinced it exists, how can you distinguish that "showing up" from your own inner "wishful thinking"/biased judgement?
The same goes for the dreams.

How can you distinguish an actual act of god from a natural psychological event?

(January 24, 2013 at 12:34 am)Esquilax Wrote:

(January 23, 2013 at 7:26 pm)Drich Wrote: Side discussion: Free will is also the reason their can not be undenyable proof of God. Because undenyable proof ends our ablity to choose.

Not at all. Just because your god exists in no way requires that I worship him or play into his delusional, sadistic games.

The mere existence of your god does not mean he is worthy of worship: he definitely, definitely is not.

Tell that to the millions who lived in the Dark ages. For them definitive knoweledge of God (through the 'church') is what sponsored every aspect of their lives. Cursades, church ran goverment, opression and power hungery leadership.

They knew God existed, but their were few that history records who actually submitted as the bible outlines.

(January 24, 2013 at 12:45 pm)Drich Wrote: Tell that to the millions who lived in the Dark ages. For them definitive knoweledge of God (through the 'church') is what sponsored every aspect of their lives. Cursades, church ran goverment, opression and power hungery leadership.

They knew God existed, but their were few that history records who actually submitted as the bible outlines.

Okay? And this alters my argument how? I already know people can do awful things in the name of religion, but that doesn't change the fact that even if your god were to appear before the world definitively, he wouldn't be worthy of my worship, nor anyone else's. I can't talk for others, but I certainly won't be worshiping him.

So the claim that undeniable proof of god by necessity removes free will by removing the choice whether or not to worship god is patently false.

(January 24, 2013 at 1:22 am)Ryantology Wrote: Proving his existence proves nothing about any other claim.

History seems to disagree.

Quote:Most people already do nothing except go through the motions. Having definitive proof would make it much easier to justify to one's self that total submission is worth the effort.

Again Look at the dark ages, Look at the Jews More over Look at those who God and Moses lead out of Egypt. It seems the more 'hand on' or known God is the more entitled and lazy the people get. It is like they are entitled to be served by God.

Quote:What if he did? Dreams are about as unreliable a method of communication as can be imagined.

If by 'dreams' you mean, what you imagine you would have Betty White do with you, while your asleep. No, I agree this is a pretty unreliable way to communicate, because anything can happen. no continuity, no ryhme or reason.

The only reason I call what I experienced a dream, is my last memory was falling alseep. That is where the similarity ends. These events are seared into my mind like a terriable memory. I don't know if you have ever been in a really bad car accident or witnessed something that scared you, to where you can never forget what you saw. This 'dream/vision' was like that.

Actual event; I was driving a box truck 45 to 50 mph and some woman pulled out 10ft in front of me in a white early 90's white series K four door. She did not see me because she was screaming at someone on the phone.. That is until I locked up my Anti lock brakes a moment before I smashed her car, right behind the drivers door causing it to pop open throwing her out of the car. (Now because her seat belt was incorperated into the door, when the door opened the seat belt came loose.) causing her lower half to slam onto my windsheild, making her and her car to spin off to the left. When I finally got the box truck stopped I looked back in the direction they were thrown I saw here pinned under the right rear wheel of her Car. She looked up at me with blood pouring from every hole in her face screaming for her mother, while she was being burned by the exhaust of her car...

Again this was a real event in march of 05. Their is no distinction in my mind between this actual memory of a traumatic event and the vision/dream God gave me. Again the only reason this is a dream in my mind are because of the events leading upto, and what happened after(where I woke up) the content or experience was as Real as one can experience anything in life.

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(January 24, 2013 at 7:05 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(January 24, 2013 at 12:19 am)Drich Wrote: As it is God hides from us till we seek Him out. This allows us to know who we are in relation to God. So whatever we choose for ourselves we know why and what to expect, thus allowing us to accept our fate.

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What if God used a dream like anyother to show me? Why would all powerful God not be allowed to use common dreams to give revelations? the bible seems to think this is a legitimate avenue for God to use to communicate.

If god only "shows up" when you're convinced it exists, how can you distinguish that "showing up" from your own inner "wishful thinking"/biased judgement?
The same goes for the dreams.

How can you distinguish an actual act of god from a natural psychological event?

Because God like any other independent being will not be what or how you have imagined.

That is if you are faithful to what He has called you to do in the bible, and do not seek a god created to fit a given religion.

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(January 24, 2013 at 12:54 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

(January 24, 2013 at 12:45 pm)Drich Wrote: Tell that to the millions who lived in the Dark ages. For them definitive knoweledge of God (through the 'church') is what sponsored every aspect of their lives. Cursades, church ran goverment, opression and power hungery leadership.

They knew God existed, but their were few that history records who actually submitted as the bible outlines.

Okay? And this alters my argument how? I already know people can do awful things in the name of religion, but that doesn't change the fact that even if your god were to appear before the world definitively, he wouldn't be worthy of my worship, nor anyone else's. I can't talk for others, but I certainly won't be worshiping him.

So the claim that undeniable proof of god by necessity removes free will by removing the choice whether or not to worship god is patently false.

Is it?

How many death penality crimes are you currently involved in? How many death penality crimes do people commit, and then showcase as a form of open rebellion? Out of those who do (binladen and the like) do so in the worship of their understanding of god. (that is why they are deemed religious extreamists) Now turn this philosphy and place the knoweledge of God/god's will in place of all state law and soceital morality. Now who is left to openly rebel against God? It would be that reality's version religious terrorist nut bag.

Because clearly most people and subsequently their goverments would adopt the practices of a verfiably known God. (like what happened durning the dark ages, and OT Judism) Which also means a paradygme shift in popular morality to more closly match that of the known God. (Again like in the dark ages and OT Judism) Who ever is left to rebel would be viewed as one outside the main line soceity, which clearly would make them a very small exception to the rule.

As i see if if you are a 'good boy' now and follow soceital morality, then you will be a good boy in that reality as well.

Drich Wrote:Can you deny my hell dream as being real? Kinda hard to be undeniable when people are doubting what is supposed to be undeniable.

Actually, I can deny it, and quite easily, I might add. My point was, however, that your belief that god refuses to show undeniable proof so as not to violate free will completely contradicts your belief that god gave you a glimpse of hell.

Also, the strength of your conviction that an experience was real has no bearing on its validity.

(January 24, 2013 at 2:56 pm)Faith No More Wrote:

Drich Wrote:Can you deny my hell dream as being real? Kinda hard to be undeniable when people are doubting what is supposed to be undeniable.

Actually, I can deny it, and quite easily, I might add. My point was, however, that your belief that god refuses to show undeniable proof so as not to violate free will completely contradicts your belief that god gave you a glimpse of hell.

Also, the strength of your conviction that an experience was real has no bearing on its validity.

Again that fact that God gave me a glimps of hell and the Fact that that glimps is indeed deniable, proves that the 'proof' i received was not undeniable. which further underscores my orginal statement. God does not give undeniable proof.

(January 24, 2013 at 1:14 pm)Drich Wrote:

(January 24, 2013 at 7:05 am)pocaracas Wrote: If god only "shows up" when you're convinced it exists, how can you distinguish that "showing up" from your own inner "wishful thinking"/biased judgement?
The same goes for the dreams.

How can you distinguish an actual act of god from a natural psychological event?

Because God like any other independent being will not be what or how you have imagined.

That is if you are faithful to what He has called you to do in the bible, and do not seek a god created to fit a given religion.

So you believe in a god that was created to fit christianity, yet refuse any other that has a similar genesis... nice going.
I just put them all at the same level. You, on the other hand, are biased.

And what happens if I don't imagine anything about that god? I have no idea what to expect of a god. I have an idea of what to expect of a highly advanced civilization... so a god would have to out-do that, at least.

(January 24, 2013 at 1:14 pm)Drich Wrote: Is it?

How many death penality crimes are you currently involved in? How many death penality crimes do people commit, and then showcase as a form of open rebellion? Out of those who do (binladen and the like) do so in the worship of their understanding of god. (that is why they are deemed religious extreamists) Now turn this philosphy and place the knoweledge of God/god's will in place of all state law and soceital morality. Now who is left to openly rebel against God? It would be that reality's version religious terrorist nut bag.

Because clearly most people and subsequently their goverments would adopt the practices of a verfiably known God. (like what happened durning the dark ages, and OT Judism) Which also means a paradygme shift in popular morality to more closly match that of the known God. (Again like in the dark ages and OT Judism) Who ever is left to rebel would be viewed as one outside the main line soceity, which clearly would make them a very small exception to the rule.

As i see if if you are a 'good boy' now and follow soceital morality, then you will be a good boy in that reality as well.

Actually no, because my morality isn't based solely on societal laws, no matter whom it happens to be based on. Sure, I follow the laws, but I also disagree with some of them, and I can indeed see a point where, if society took up god's morality (say, to the point of feeding those who dare mock his prophets to bears) that I would take a stand and disobey the immoral ones.

But that's beside the point anyway. The existence of your god does not require worship or rebellion be the only options anyway. I simply refuse to live on bended knee toward a tyrant: your god might prove himself extant tomorrow, and it wouldn't change my actions at all, because I'm focused on being a good person for my own reasons, not his, and not society's. Undeniable proof of god would merely give one food for thought, not alter free will: even the faithful can't agree on what counts as god's will, after all.