I am merely speaking of the fact that when someone is genetically male or genetically female, then what they think about themselves doesn't change the genetics. That's self-evidently true.

Boy/Girl is a genetic thing. Gender identity, whether a person wishes to be thought of or considered, or "be" a boy or girl, is a different thing entirely to the genetically physical fact of the matter.

EvF

Split in the middle of it (Sure threw me off for a minute there... I thought someone had managed to quote both me and my statements from pages back I was confused as hell until I realized what had happened ):

Essentially... that gender identity IS them. Everyone is 'boy' or 'girl' because of this identity... not because of genetics I didn't have to see a picture of you to conclude that you were a guy... I didn't even need to take your word for it: it is rather evident from the way your speak

Boy/girl is an identity thing... it is one of the greater defining aspects of your personality. One's genitals are a genetic thing The MtF transexual is a girl... with the genes of a boy. It isn't the other way around "Boy that wants to be a girl"... because the entire basis of this is upon gender identity

Read the Wiki article It should explain lotz

Well I don't define gender that way you see. A boy is genetically a boy and a girl is genetically a girl I say. Whether the identity matters more than the genetic fact is a different matter entirely.

EvF

Sae,

I swear I would fall our of my chair if I ever were to see you type, "Oh, yeah good point." JUST ONCE! You seem to make noodly, ambiguous point after noodly ambiguous point and change according to who speaks to you last.

For the record I agree with EvF; genetics dictate sex then people can decide whatever they want to be called. I always refer to someone by the gender they say they are regardless of how badly they fit the part. The way you make it sound is just ass backwards. Gender defining features like penises and vaginas are not merely the body trying to balance out some genetic equation.

Rhizo

(October 26, 2009 at 5:22 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Well I don't define gender that way you see. A boy is genetically a boy and a girl is genetically a girl I say. Whether the identity matters more than the genetic fact is a different matter entirely.

EvF

Ah, i don't deny that (It most certainly does matter more after all ) Darn these annoying definitions... how can you know that which I call 'chocolate' is not what you call 'orangutang'... so when I say "Do you want some chocolate", you interpret it as "Do you want some orangutang?"

Lol what the fuck, I love the random example of a misunderstanding!

Well you seem to equate gender to mean="gender identity", whereas I thought only gender identity=gender identity - and I thought that simply "Gender"=another technical term for "Sex", a synonym for it, which cannot be confused with the other meaning(s) of sex (intercourse, etc.).

EvF

You'd seriously fall out of your chair? Haven't you seen me backing up other peoples points all across this forum? Or do you only notice what I say when I disagree with you? I'll give you some more links to back up what I say later then Please read the one's I've already posted (they are interesting Wiki articles, imo... you might as well read them )

Unless the data has radically changed in the last year or so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tra...ted_topics should be a list of what is backing me up I've also read several fairly recent Discover magazine articles about the brain (Including one about how it is the most important sex organ). As it is responsible for everything you feel during sex... I can hardly see how that would be controversial Anyway, I maintain that one's sex is apparent not in what they look like (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_orie...rientation and in general http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype )
But as a part of what they feel like doing (Mounting vs being mounted sort of thing, somewhat controversial, but generally true), and the way they do it (among other things related to gender identity).

So I have a (imo) great deal of evidence that sex is less on what you physically have, and much more on what you mentally have. It would take a great deal of counter-proof to change my mind on that (and many of the primary counter-proofs have been refuted already, as can be seen in the somewhat famous case of John/Joan (See "as nature made him" [a book]) made by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money (refuted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_Diamond ).

Anyway... lots of interesting data for you to peruse if you want

---

(October 26, 2009 at 5:45 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Lol what the fuck, I love the random example of a misunderstanding!

Well you seem to equate gender to mean="gender identity", whereas I thought only gender identity=gender identity - and I thought that simply "Gender"=another technical term for "Sex", a synonym for it, which cannot be confused with the other meaning(s) of sex (intercourse, etc.).

EvF

Well, gender is typically a word used to describe the cultural, social, and mental aspects of sex Sex is usually in reference to biology (Although many just take it as a shortcut for saying sexual intercourse, like you say ) For the record, I think you are using it as a plain out synonym... but I think that gender very specifically describes the most important aspects behind one's sex (Much like you think faith describes a specific level of such )

Your Gender is a synonym for your Sex right? Your Gender Identity is how you identify with your Gender, not your Gender itself. Right?

(And for the record, faith is more specific than simply "belief" or "trust" for example, they are not homonyms. They are synonyms but different enough to not mean exactly the same thing. Faith is to trust or believe in something without proof, and it also has more religious connotations, etc.).

As I have said a few times now, I am not talking about gender identity, but the genetics...and what matters most is a different matter entirely! Whether someone believes themselves to be a boy or a girl, and to which they like to be referred to, is a different matter entirely to whether they are actually a boy or girl or not, to whether they genetically are or not. You are what you are, and the importance of what you identify with is a different matter to what you actually, genetically, are.

EvF

Gender Identity is like saying I am passive aggressive.

More on this when I get back

(October 25, 2009 at 8:40 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote:

(October 21, 2009 at 6:39 pm)Amphora Wrote: hehehe most people are wrong, and they don't admit it when they are wrong

Fixed (with the bold). It applies to both sexes :p

EvF

Why did you change that? Tis better now. It shows a bigger perspective on this topic.

I was generally speaking about some guys in particular that they don't admit when they are wrong, but not say that females are wrong at times as well. But at least for a few females admit when they are wrong.

It's like saying that if a guy was lost will he go to the nearest gas station and ask for directions, most likely he will not because of his male pride. Is this true?