(January 30, 2013 at 4:48 pm)genkaus Wrote: Do you believe there is such a thing as the LNM?

I don't see any option to the answer other than yes or no.

Answering no isn't a belief because there isn't a reason why the Lochness Monster should exist due to a lack of evidence. You can choose to believe it without the evidence then you're actively engaging in the process of maintaining a belief about something you can't know.

(January 30, 2013 at 4:56 pm)Zone Wrote: Answering no isn't a belief because there isn't a reason why the Lochness Monster should exist due to a lack of evidence. You can choose to believe it without the evidence then you're actively engaging in the process of maintaining a belief about something you can't know.

Answering no is a belief because in that case you believe that the LNM does not exist. And whether or not you choose to believe without evidence, you are maintaining a belief either way.

(January 30, 2013 at 5:06 pm)genkaus Wrote: Answering no is a belief because in that case you believe that the LNM does not exist. And whether or not you choose to believe without evidence, you are maintaining a belief either way.

It's not like you would have a belief in the LNM either way if no-one came up with the LNM in the first place. Just because someone else comes up with a belief in the LNM it doesn't mean you now have a new equal and opposite belief to them. You're still the same as you were before when you were minding your business and unaware of any such thing as the LNM. You're just not interested in the Lochness Monster.

(January 30, 2013 at 6:11 pm)Zone Wrote: It's not like you would have a belief in the LNM either way if no-one came up with the LNM in the first place. Just because someone else comes up with a belief in the LNM it doesn't mean you now have a new equal and opposite belief to them. You're still the same as you were before when you were minding your business and unaware of any such thing as the LNM. You're just not interested in the Lochness Monster.

That's where you are wrong. Once you are confronted with and understand the concept of LNM, you are no longer the same as before. However slightly, you have changed. Your awareness of the concept necessitates a belief regarding it.

(January 30, 2013 at 6:34 pm)genkaus Wrote: That's where you are wrong. Once you are confronted with and understand the concept of LNM, you are no longer the same as before.

You would be different in the sense that you now would know of people who believe something without a good reason without any evidence of which they ought to have if what they believe was real. But this awareness wouldn't have changed your own perspective of the universe in anyway. You're the same as you were before but other people are believing something else relative to you that's the only difference, the difference isn't coming from your end.

(January 30, 2013 at 6:34 pm)genkaus Wrote: However slightly, you have changed. Your awareness of the concept necessitates a belief regarding it.

You just reject the concept and remain as you were. The rejection of someones concept doesn't mean you formed a new one of your own to counter it. An atheists arguement against religious or supernatural claims comes from this position.

(January 30, 2013 at 6:44 pm)Zone Wrote: You would be different in the sense that you now would know of people who believe something without a good reason without any evidence of which they ought to have if what they believe was real. But this awareness wouldn't have changed your own perspective of the universe in anyway. You're the same as you were before but other people are believing something else relative to you that's the only difference, the difference isn't coming from your end.

You just reject the concept and remain as you were. The rejection of someones concept doesn't mean you formed a new one of your own to counter it. An atheists arguement against religious or supernatural claims comes from this position.

Not every belief is significant to your perspective of the universe. But if you reject it you are still expressing a belief regarding it, whether or not you form a new one of your own.

(January 30, 2013 at 4:48 pm)genkaus Wrote: Do you believe there is such a thing as the LNM?

I don't see any option to the answer other than yes or no.

That is the wrong question.
The correct question would be: Does the LNM exist? Yes or no?

Alternative answer: I don't know.


Is my mother blonde? Yes or no?

--- how can you tell, if you've never met her? You don't know, hence, you can't judge whether the statement is true or false.


Fuzzy logic... look into it.

(January 30, 2013 at 7:38 pm)pocaracas Wrote: That is the wrong question.

Really? And how did you determine that?

(January 30, 2013 at 7:38 pm)pocaracas Wrote: The correct question would be: Does the LNM exist? Yes or no?

Alternative answer: I don't know.

Except, the question is not about its actual existence but your belief regarding it.

(January 30, 2013 at 7:38 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Is my mother blonde? Yes or no?

--- how can you tell, if you've never met her? You don't know, hence, you can't judge whether the statement is true or false.

I can still believe that she is not blonde even if I don't know for certain.

(January 30, 2013 at 7:50 pm)genkaus Wrote:

(January 30, 2013 at 7:38 pm)pocaracas Wrote: That is the wrong question.

Really? And how did you determine that?

(January 30, 2013 at 7:38 pm)pocaracas Wrote: The correct question would be: Does the LNM exist? Yes or no?

Alternative answer: I don't know.

Except, the question is not about its actual existence but your belief regarding it.

(January 30, 2013 at 7:38 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Is my mother blonde? Yes or no?

--- how can you tell, if you've never met her? You don't know, hence, you can't judge whether the statement is true or false.

I can still believe that she is not blonde even if I don't know for certain.

You may believe it, but with nothing to guide you either way, it is not a clever position... Unless you're betting on it...then you'd want it to be true.
What if you don't believe that she's blonde? Does that mean that you automatically believe that she's not blonde?

Belief is a funny thing...has to start with some proposition, and then you may believe it or not.
Let's say some friend of yours comes to you and says "pocaracas' mum is blonde".you have no way of knowing if he knows my mum or not, so you either believe him, or you don't.
If you believe him, you believe that my mum is blonde. If you don't believe him, it simply means you realize he has no way of knowing that and he's probably messing with you... You don't believe the proposition that my mum is blonde and this says nothing about your belief in the proposition that she's not blonde.
You simply do not believe, period.

If no one proposes to you that my mum is blonde, you may still come up with that idea by yourself... But what would prompt you into coming up with such an idea? Most likely, some information like you knowing that I'm blonde...which you could get from some photo. Then you'd plug in your knowledge of genetics (even if just empirical) and determine how likely it is for my mum to be as blonde as I am...if you find it likely, then it makes sense for you to believe that she's blonde.if you find it unlikely, it makes sense that you'd believe that she's not blonde. If you find that the likelihood of her being blonde is the same or very close to the likelihood of her not being blonde, then you're back at the no info either way position... And one where belief either way is not very smart.

(January 30, 2013 at 9:31 pm)pocaracas Wrote: You may believe it, but with nothing to guide you either way, it is not a clever position... Unless you're betting on it...then you'd want it to be true.
What if you don't believe that she's blonde? Does that mean that you automatically believe that she's not blonde?

Yes, it does.

(January 30, 2013 at 9:31 pm)pocaracas Wrote: Belief is a funny thing...has to start with some proposition, and then you may believe it or not.
Let's say some friend of yours comes to you and says "pocaracas' mum is blonde".you have no way of knowing if he knows my mum or not, so you either believe him, or you don't.
If you believe him, you believe that my mum is blonde. If you don't believe him, it simply means you realize he has no way of knowing that and he's probably messing with you... You don't believe the proposition that my mum is blonde and this says nothing about your belief in the proposition that she's not blonde.
You simply do not believe, period.

Its simpler than that actually. If I don't believe my friend, then I don't believe your mum is blonde. I am capable of accepting that I don't have a way of knowing and that my belief regarding it can be easily changed by the slightest amount of evidence presented, all the while realizing that even without evidence, whether I believe my friend or not, I am professing a belief.

(January 30, 2013 at 9:31 pm)pocaracas Wrote: If no one proposes to you that my mum is blonde, you may still come up with that idea by yourself... But what would prompt you into coming up with such an idea? Most likely, some information like you knowing that I'm blonde...which you could get from some photo. Then you'd plug in your knowledge of genetics (even if just empirical) and determine how likely it is for my mum to be as blonde as I am...if you find it likely, then it makes sense for you to believe that she's blonde.if you find it unlikely, it makes sense that you'd believe that she's not blonde. If you find that the likelihood of her being blonde is the same or very close to the likelihood of her not being blonde, then you're back at the no info either way position... And one where belief either way is not very smart.

You seem to be of the opinion that in absence of any evidence professing any belief is not "smart" - why is that?