(February 6, 2013 at 9:58 am)Confused Ape Wrote:

(February 6, 2013 at 9:24 am)AtlasS Wrote: The Quran is very clear about the difference between Christians, Jews & other kinds of faith.

But the Christians -especially- were given praise in a some verses, like this one :

Now my question to christians is : why don't you pay us the same respect ?

Put it down to human nature. Christians are supposed to love their enemies but how many of them do?

The history of the crossbow illustrates how medieval Christians ignored what they didn't want to hear.

The Medieval Crossbow Is Banned!

Quote:In 1139 Pope Innocent II and the Church of the Lateran Council issued a judgement against the use of the crossbow by Christians against Christians. The Medieval crossbow was referred to as "the deadly art, hated by God, of crossbowmen..."

The Medieval crossbow was viewed as an abomination but the weapon bans failed to stop the rise of crossbows, they were simply ignored, and the crossbow continued to remain a favoured weapon across both Europe and England.

It made the knights vulnerable, no wonder it was banned, I feel that the medieval church was a more military organization than a religious center.

(February 6, 2013 at 9:58 am)catfish Wrote: Fucking loaded questions....

AtlasS, when did you start lying about your book and Christians?
.

I swear I'm not lying. There is a whole section in Islam about those matters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aṣḥama_ibn_Abjar

The first person who made an alliance with Mohammad was a Christian.
Why would I lie about history or my holly book ?

(February 6, 2013 at 9:58 am)Drich Wrote: What do the crusades have to do with what your holy book Identifies as the "Unjust people you are NOT to take as friends?" Wasn't the Quran written before the Crusades? This would mean that the offical position of your system of belief demands that their be division between the followers of Islam and everyone else. Again this determination was made long before anything happened between Muslims and Christians/Jews.

Let me explain.

The overall description of Christians in Islam is not biased, they are people just like anyone else, but their religion has a feature which makes some of them humble (the most religious).

Because arrogance doesn't exist in christianity, we are most likely not to fight or hate.

On the other hand, no promises were given if christians simply threw away their humility & replace it with ego. That what happened in the crusades.

I hope the link is clear now.

And there is something else you don't clearly get about Islam.

Dude.. when we speak about division in the Quran, it's not a nationalist speech for muslims to rise & get a country & invade anybody else.

It's simply how I deal with jews,christians & others on a faith level.

for example, a jew came to me & said : atlas, your religion sucks ! why don't you change a couple of verses ?

but we're not speaking about social life.

I have known christians, and we never opened up the topic of religion. We are still friends & we forget most of the time that our religions are different.

But here we're speaking about it from a "religious" pov, not human.

If I became a friend with a christian on "faith basis", then I'm not a muslim anymore. It means that I'm going to believe in his faith & he shall do the same. Now this is forbidden.

Remember that Jerusalem lived under Islamic rule for years & years, the ancient churches still stand, the christian population also still stands.

If we are dividing humanity like you say, why didn't we kill all the jews & christians ?

why are many Muslims marrying christians & even jews ?

Ask yourself this..we're not so "evil" like you might think.

Even in atheist countries division exists. The soviet union is our first example.

Quote:Now that is not to say their aren't half hearted followers of Islam (just like what is found in Christianity) who pick and choose certain passages of their holy book to follow,(Ignoring the unpleasent bits) creating a 'moral or socially acceptable version' of their religion. But even so, no matter what these watered down muslims think or say, "True Muslims ™" Or Muslims who strictly follow the teachings of Muhammad, are to seperate themselves from everyone else. (Just like the Jews were to do in the OT) Appearently this was not a lesson learned, because it puts 'the chosen' at odds with everyone else. This seperation and isolation can also make the 'elect' go crazy and that makes them do crazy things in the name of their god....

These 'crazy things' are what other people of other faiths see and judge the whole lot by, not allowing for or taking into consideration what the watered down in your faith believe.

Excuse me. But you know nothing about Islam.

NOTHING.

do you know what the 6 pillars of believe are ?

-Believing in fate is one of the 6 pillars.

Do you know what fate is ?

fate = nobody knows the future but god.

which means ; I don't know if I'm going to stay a Muslim.
I don't know if you're going to convert someday or not.

Which simply means in conclusion ; this verse :

"Say, I wasn't any different than any other prophet, and I don't know what's going to happen to me or you".

Mohammad is giving you an example about how to believe in fate he simply doesn't know what's going to happen, nobody knows.

According to that, I cannot judge people, only god does.
I'm not bullshitting around. This is one of the pillars of faith ; without it you're not a muslim.

---

(February 6, 2013 at 11:14 am)thesummerqueen Wrote: Muslims don't respect Christians anymore than Christians respect atheists or Muslims anymore than atheists respect...anyone.

I, an atheist Jew, will respect you as a human being. I won't respect you as a Muslim...or whatever else other supernaturally qualified label you feel like giving yourself. In fact, I'm only going to give you the modicum of respect you deserve as a human until you prove you're more than a mouth breather. That's how I am.

Indeed ; that's why I posted this in the Christian section
Your way is right ; you should treat people as humans.

---

(February 6, 2013 at 11:31 am)Minimalist Wrote:


I can't imagine why........

Mcrubbish, you're a stereotypical tomato-head !
You should open your eyes on other things.....like this....

http://blog.chron.com/aroundthejewishwor...-israel-2/

You know, supporting a country like Israel makes some muslims really angry, I don't wanna sound extremist but the west is almost a whore to israel, tell me when did any western country took the side of the Muslims ?

If you think the brutality of Israel is passable & muslims shouldn't be angry on the west, then you have a problem.

Just remember that angry muslims like these in the photos would date all their hatred to the issue of Israel.

The problem is : the jews declared israel as a jewish state, yet the west still supports them.

But when muslims want to make an "Islamic state" hellfire rain on them, notice that also the jews waged "jewish jihad" on arabs for years (even on british), but it was "passable" in western standards, because simply :because some of them had millions, and of course : because almost all of them carried western nationalities before going to Israel.

I can understand why those people are angry.. you should too.

I'm not saying that muslims are saint..but please don't tell me that the west is fair in its foreign policies !

I want to know your feelings when Muslims make an agreement to spread "hordes of muslims" in america with firearms & artillery to make "the promised kingdom of heaven".. I'm sure you'll also be angry on any muslim you see.

(February 6, 2013 at 12:24 pm)AtlasS Wrote: Let me explain.

The overall description of Christians in Islam is not biased, they are people just like anyone else, but their religion has a feature which makes some of them humble (the most religious).

Book Chapter and verse please. (In your book, after all if your repersenting True Islam™ then you should be able to support your beliefs with book chapter and verse.
Because arrogance doesn't exist in christianity, we are most likely not to fight or hate.

On the other hand, no promises were given if christians simply threw away their humility & replace it with ego. That what happened in the crusades.[/quote]Again the seperation between Islam and all other religions was made long before the first crusade. These are Muhammad's rules not ours.

Quote:I hope the link is clear now.

Indeed you favor the bait and switch method of logical thinking. Rather than addressing what your 'holy book' actually says, you have subverted to speaking about the crusades (something completely off topic)

Quote:And there is something else you don't clearly get about Islam.

Dude.. when we speak about division in the Quran, it's not a nationalist speech for muslims to rise & get a country & invade anybody else.

It's simply how I deal with jews,christians & others on a faith level.

for example, a jew came to me & said : atlas, your religion sucks ! why don't you change a couple of verses ?

but we're not speaking about social life.

I have known christians, and we never opened up the topic of religion. We are still friends & we forget most of the time that our religions are different.

So? This only proves you do not follow "the Path" set before you by your prophet.

Quote:But here we're speaking about it from a "religious" pov, not human.

If I became a friend with a christian on "faith basis", then I'm not a muslim anymore. It means that I'm going to believe in his faith & he shall do the same. Now this is forbidden.

Sounds like cherry picking to me. Your book Says: Qu'ran (5:51) - "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."

"Those who believe Shall not take Jews and Christians for friends." Pretty cut and dry for (true Islamic believers™) I guess your telling me that you are the watered down version, or the "west friendly" version. the Sunni nor the Shia seem to have this issue though, they understand this passage, and have applied it in a very real way.

And as I pointed out it is not what you do in the name of your God it is what your radical brothers do that people judge. You Yourself model this example when you bring up the radical christians who marched in the crusades. You have judged the whole of Christianity by what a small percentage has done.
Now may I ask why should the WORLD be kept from making the same type of judgement you yourself have made against Christianity? It's Human nature, and none of us are above it. (Which answers your orginal question)

Quote:Remember that Jerusalem lived under Islamic rule for years & years, the ancient churches still stand, the christian population also still stands.

If we are dividing humanity like you say, why didn't we kill all the jews & christians ?

Muslims destroy churches all of the time what are you talking about?: http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/11/tanzan...stors.html
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Worshi...by_Muslims
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kJn-ZP7QSA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades
If you look at that list you will see the vast majority of churches built in the crusades were indeed destroyed. The ones that were left were kept they were the most holy according to the church at the time. So they were defiled to mock the Christian God/church.

Quote:why are many Muslims marrying christians & even jews ?

Show me a sheia or a sunni who has married a Christian or a Jew, and I will show you someone who is marked for death.

Quote:Ask yourself this..we're not so "evil" like you might think.

I never said you were evil. and so long as no one from your religion crashes something into my house (on purpose), I do not care. (that is why I do not generally spend time debating muslims about who is right.)

Quote:Even in atheist countries division exists. The soviet union is our first example.

Which is why I made the distinction between 'true muslims™' (Their words not mine) and the water down version (again their words not mine.) to them you guys are a plague or cancer when it comes to the 'True Faith.'

Quote:Excuse me. But you know nothing about Islam.

NOTHING.

do you know what the 6 pillars of believe are ?

I know that 'True Muslims™' Believe their to only be 5 pillars of faith, and that 'infidels' in the faith have created a 6th. So my question is was that a trick question, or are you considered to be an 'infidel' by a 'true muslim™?'

Quote:-Believing in fate is one of the 6 pillars.

Do you know what fate is ?

fate = nobody knows the future but god.

which means ; I don't know if I'm going to stay a Muslim.
I don't know if you're going to convert someday or not.

I also know that 'fate' is the infidel's pillar.

Quote:Which simply means in conclusion ; this verse :

"Say, I wasn't any different than any other prophet, and I don't know what's going to happen to me or you".

Mohammad is giving you an example about how to believe in fate he simply doesn't know what's going to happen, nobody knows.

According to that, I cannot judge people, only god does.
I'm not bullshitting around. This is one of the pillars of faith ; without it you're not a muslim.

Actually you mean to say without the 6th pillar you are not a moderate muslim. Shea, and Sunni muslims take a very different view about the 6th pillar. (as I am sure you are well aware, but have chose to ignore or simply misrepersent what the vast majority believe, for the sake of trying to win an arguement.)

Israel is a whore to the west, shouldn't exist, and the Christians whore back to it because it's necessary to their Biblical prophecy.

The only thing Muslims have on Jews and Christians is they've had a few hundred less years for the majority of their population to settle the fuck down and move to secular countries. Many of them are still animals. So are many Christians and Jews.

The only reason the Jews get a pass is the Holocaust.

I'm not a big fan of Israel, either, (and for much the same reason that I'm not a fan of islamic bigots or xtian bigots...perhaps you see the point?) Anyone who murders anyone over who has a better invisible friend is a fucking moron as far as I am concerned.

Surely you can loosen the towel on your head long enough to see that when your compatriots riot because of cartoons or movies or other such childishness you look like a bunch of fucking assholes. That many, many, more stand by and do not condemn the rioters makes you look complicit.

Do you get it now? When islam grows the fuck up...which is to say when people start abandoning it droves because it is just as much a pile of shit as all the others... then you can talk.

"fate = nobody knows the future but god."

Then who needs such a god?

Damn, long comment :/
To Drich

Quote:Book Chapter and verse please. (In your book, after all if your repersenting True Islam™ then you should be able to support your beliefs with book chapter and verse.
Because arrogance doesn't exist in christianity, we are most likely not to fight or hate.

Sure thing. I'm not putting verses because I memorize a lot of verses (in Arabic), then I translate them & then trying to fetch the verse's location & translate that too into english, not as easy as it sounds. But sure ; I shall show that with the verse ; both in arabic & english.

First of all ; the equality of all humans including heathens :
...و لا يجرمنكم شنئان قوم أن صدوكم عن المسجد الحرام ان تعتدوا و تعاونوا على البر و التقوى و لا تعاونوا على الإثم و العدوان و اتقوا الله ان الله شديد العقاب
سورة المائدة، آية ٢

Translation :
"... Don't let the hatred of people who prevented you from the holy mosque carry you to aggression, help each other -you & those people aka heathens- on righteous deeds, but don't help each other on sin & aggression, fend god, god's punishment is severe"
Sura 5 , verse 2

So, I think it's clear why my good relationship with you -and atheists- in forums like this are not contradicting my believe : )
When the chance presents itself to do something good, a muslim should corporate, despite the religion of the opposing side.
If being a friend with an atheist means mutual respect + elimination of hatred, then this is exactly the right deed ; and as a Muslim I should answer.
meh, if people just read those verses for real

Anyways, so right now we know that we as muslims don't give a damn about what you believe in, because this verse also states it :

"قل يا أيها الكافرون ١ لا اعبد ما تعبدون ٢ و لا انتم عابدون ما اعبد ٣ و لا انا عابد ما عبدتم ٤ و لا انتم عابدون ما اعبد ٥ لكم دينكم و لي دين"
سورة الكافرون

Translation :
"say, Unbelievers (1) I don't worship what you worship (2) Neither do you worship what I worship (3) Nor do I worship what you worship (4) And you will not worship what I worship (5) you have your religion ; I have mine
Surah 109

So, by the word of god, you have the right on this earth to choose whatever religion you want. I think that the verse didn't contain "kill" or "slaughter" or "force them"...
Unlike Christianity, we have a whole sura from our book, giving the right for atheists, Christians, jews to chose what they want ; you have your religion ; I have mine.

So until here, we see that Islam is not dividing anybody ; eventually this verse stays :

Quote:AtlasS wrote from the Quran earlier in this post :

Don't let the hatred of people who prevented you from the holy mosque carry you to aggression, help each other -you & those people aka heathens- on righteous deeds

So just in god's name tell me, please : how is islam dividing people, if its calling them to gather on good deeds ?

You know, if a Muslim leader slaughtered christian women & children, and called for Jihad, my religious constraints forces me to refuse that call to Jihad ?
So how are we dividing people, if we always stand in the side of the good deeds ?
Good deeds include union, peace, money to the poor... etc.
Please now I wanna ask you something.
Could you fetch to me a verse from the bible or from your popes, which says something like this ?
That if the infidels called for a good deed, muslims should obey ?
You know what, ignore christianity.
Give a 1 medieval leader who said that...

Now another verse final verse ; which proves totally what I said about christians being just humans like anyone else :

"ثم قفينا على آثارهم برسلنا و قفينا بعيسى ابن مريم و آتيناه الانجيل و جعلنا في قلوب الذين اتبعوه رأفة و رحمة ، و رهبانية ابتدعوها ما كتبناها عليهم الا ابتغاء رضوان الله فما رعوها حق رعايتها فآتينا الذين امنوا منهم أجرهم و كثير منهم فاسقون"

Translation :
"Then we sent our messengers on their trails, and we sent Isa (Jesus) son of mariam (marry), and gave him the Ingeel (gospel/bible/the original one, not what you're reading now), and we made in the hearts of those who followed him compassion & mercy (we literally believe that your ancestor were awesome,do you think the same about ours ?), and monasticism they invented, we didn't write it on them (i.e god didn't tell christians to become monks) they invented it only to please god, but they didn't care for it probably, so we gave those who believed amongst them their reward, and many of them are (rebellious against god's commands)
Sura 57 verse 27

So, we do look at you like humans. Some are good, some are bad, sometimes bad increase, sometimes good increase & so on.

It took me a lot of time to write this so I'm taking a break.

But before that ; Islam has 11 pillars belonging to different categories.

1-The pillars of Islam :
a)You believe & say that god is one & mohammad is a prophet
b)pray the 5 prayers
c)Give zaka (charity) to the poor on fixed durations through your life
d)fast the month of ramadan
e) Performing the pilgrimage to the holy mosque in mecca

2-The pillars of Iman (believe/faith) :
a)to believe in god
b)to believe in his angeles & that they're neither women nor men
c)to believe in the holy books (books not book,including the real bible, the real tulmud)
d)to believe in all the messengers of god
e) to believe in the day of judgment
f) to believe in FATE

So I didn't get what you mean by "infidel's pillar" ? but ask the most retarded & sinful muslim on earth, and he shall tell you that those are the main components of Islam

I didn't understand what you meant by the "6th pillar" is false

Dude Islam has (pillars of Islam) & (Pillars of Iman (faith) )

Where did you learn about Islam ? the church ???

(February 6, 2013 at 3:44 pm)AtlasS Wrote: Damn, long comment :/
To Drich

Quote:Book Chapter and verse please. (In your book, after all if your repersenting True Islam™ then you should be able to support your beliefs with book chapter and verse.
Because arrogance doesn't exist in christianity, we are most likely not to fight or hate.

Sure thing. I'm not putting verses because I memorize a lot of verses (in Arabic), then I translate them & then trying to fetch the verse's location & translate that too into english, not as easy as it sounds. But sure ; I shall show that with the verse ; both in arabic & english.

First of all ; the equality of all humans including heathens :
...و لا يجرمنكم شنئان قوم أن صدوكم عن المسجد الحرام ان تعتدوا و تعاونوا على البر و التقوى و لا تعاونوا على الإثم و العدوان و اتقوا الله ان الله شديد العقاب
سورة المائدة، آية ٢

Translation :
"... Don't let the hatred of people who prevented you from the holy mosque carry you to aggression, help each other -you & those people aka heathens- on righteous deeds, but don't help each other on sin & aggression, fend god, god's punishment is severe"
Sura 5 , verse 2

So, I think it's clear why my good relationship with you -and atheists- in forums like this are not contradicting my believe : )
When the chance presents itself to do something good, a muslim should corporate, despite the religion of the opposing side.
If being a friend with an atheist means mutual respect + elimination of hatred, then this is exactly the right deed ; and as a Muslim I should answer.
meh, if people just read those verses for real

Anyways, so right now we know that we as muslims don't give a damn about what you believe in, because this verse also states it :

"قل يا أيها الكافرون ١ لا اعبد ما تعبدون ٢ و لا انتم عابدون ما اعبد ٣ و لا انا عابد ما عبدتم ٤ و لا انتم عابدون ما اعبد ٥ لكم دينكم و لي دين"
سورة الكافرون

Translation :
"say, Unbelievers (1) I don't worship what you worship (2) Neither do you worship what I worship (3) Nor do I worship what you worship (4) And you will not worship what I worship (5) you have your religion ; I have mine
Surah 109

So, by the word of god, you have the right on this earth to choose whatever religion you want. I think that the verse didn't contain "kill" or "slaughter" or "force them"...
Unlike Christianity, we have a whole sura from our book, giving the right for atheists, Christians, jews to chose what they want ; you have your religion ; I have mine.

So until here, we see that Islam is not dividing anybody ; eventually this verse stays :

Quote:AtlasS wrote from the Quran earlier in this post :

Don't let the hatred of people who prevented you from the holy mosque carry you to aggression, help each other -you & those people aka heathens- on righteous deeds

So just in god's name tell me, please : how is islam dividing people, if its calling them to gather on good deeds ?

You know, if a Muslim leader slaughtered christian women & children, and called for Jihad, my religious constraints forces me to refuse that call to Jihad ?
So how are we dividing people, if we always stand in the side of the good deeds ?
Good deeds include union, peace, money to the poor... etc.
Please now I wanna ask you something.
Could you fetch to me a verse from the bible or from your popes, which says something like this ?
That if the infidels called for a good deed, muslims should obey ?
You know what, ignore christianity.
Give a 1 medieval leader who said that...

Now another verse final verse ; which proves totally what I said about christians being just humans like anyone else :

"ثم قفينا على آثارهم برسلنا و قفينا بعيسى ابن مريم و آتيناه الانجيل و جعلنا في قلوب الذين اتبعوه رأفة و رحمة ، و رهبانية ابتدعوها ما كتبناها عليهم الا ابتغاء رضوان الله فما رعوها حق رعايتها فآتينا الذين امنوا منهم أجرهم و كثير منهم فاسقون"

Translation :
"Then we sent our messengers on their trails, and we sent Isa (Jesus) son of mariam (marry), and gave him the Ingeel (gospel/bible/the original one, not what you're reading now), and we made in the hearts of those who followed him compassion & mercy (we literally believe that your ancestor were awesome,do you think the same about ours ?), and monasticism they invented, we didn't write it on them (i.e god didn't tell christians to become monks) they invented it only to please god, but they didn't care for it probably, so we gave those who believed amongst them their reward, and many of them are (rebellious against god's commands)
Sura 57 verse 27

So, we do look at you like humans. Some are good, some are bad, sometimes bad increase, sometimes good increase & so on.

It took me a lot of time to write this so I'm taking a break.

But before that ; Islam has 11 pillars belonging to different categories.

1-The pillars of Islam :
a)You believe & say that god is one & mohammad is a prophet
b)pray the 5 prayers
c)Give zaka (charity) to the poor on fixed durations through your life
d)fast the month of ramadan
e) Performing the pilgrimage to the holy mosque in mecca

2-The pillars of Iman (believe/faith) :
a)to believe in god
b)to believe in his angeles & that they're neither women nor men
c)to believe in the holy books (books not book,including the real bible, the real tulmud)
d)to believe in all the messengers of god
e) to believe in the day of judgment
f) to believe in FATE

So I didn't get what you mean by "infidel's pillar" ? but ask the most retarded & sinful muslim on earth, and he shall tell you that those are the main components of Islam

I didn't understand what you meant by the "6th pillar" is false

Dude Islam has (pillars of Islam) & (Pillars of Iman (faith) )

Where did you learn about Islam ? the church ???

Aside from I don't generally care what people of your faith believe, this is the other reason I do not like speaking with you guys on religious matters. You don't know how to follow a conversation and direct your responses to the topics being discussed. This is either an intentional (Red Herring) or deflection, or it could be a general ignorance of polite conversation, or just more of that crazy Islamic Zeolusness, to go on about stuff I just do not give two squirts about.

If you can focous your efforts and stay on target, reset and try your response again. If not then the conversation from this point is yours.

(February 6, 2013 at 7:16 pm)Drich Wrote: Aside from I don't generally care what people of your faith believe, this is the other reason I do not like speaking with you guys on religious matters. You don't know how to follow a conversation and direct your responses to the topics being discussed. This is either an intentional (Red Herring) or deflection, or it could be a general ignorance of polite conversation, or just more of that crazy Islamic Zeolusness, to go on about stuff I just do not give two squirts about.

If you can focous your efforts and stay on target, reset and try your response again. If not then the conversation from this point is yours.

The proper course of action is to admit that he was responding to your pillar crap and deal with it... (not that I expect you to be proper)
.

RE: Why don't Christians pay Muslims the same respect ?

Because the kettle always hate black the most.

Quote:Now my question to christians is : why don't you pay us the same respect ?

Christians understand that your religion is violent, superstitious bullshit.

Once they point that understanding at a mirror, they will finally understand where we come from.

(February 6, 2013 at 7:21 pm)catfish Wrote:

(February 6, 2013 at 7:16 pm)Drich Wrote: Aside from I don't generally care what people of your faith believe, this is the other reason I do not like speaking with you guys on religious matters. You don't know how to follow a conversation and direct your responses to the topics being discussed. This is either an intentional (Red Herring) or deflection, or it could be a general ignorance of polite conversation, or just more of that crazy Islamic Zeolusness, to go on about stuff I just do not give two squirts about.

If you can focous your efforts and stay on target, reset and try your response again. If not then the conversation from this point is yours.

The proper course of action is to admit that he was responding to your pillar crap and deal with it... (not that I expect you to be proper)
.

Don't you STILL owe me an exegesis of Hebrews 8? Maybe you should tend to your chickens before you worry about mine. (that would be the 'proper thing to do.')