(February 14, 2013 at 11:18 am)AtlasS Wrote:

(February 14, 2013 at 10:36 am)Esquilax Wrote: Ahh, the old god of the gaps argument: we don't know yet, therefore god. That's nice and flawed.

It's a well known argument & it's not used by the religious folks only. It's called the leap of faith, you reach a certain level where you don't know the answer, you would also think that searching for the solution would take a very long time, without a guarantee that the solution might be discovered.

A leap of faith, otherwise known as a flash of inspiration, is fine and can in fact be a perfectly valid aid to investigation.The problems come when, having made that inspirational leap, we decide that the solution has been found and thus the investigation shuts down.

However, this isn't what Esquilax was referring to. The god of the gaps argument ism basically, "we don't yet have an explanation for phenomenon X; therefore it must have been God". That is the point at which investigation shuts down.

(February 14, 2013 at 11:18 am)AtlasS Wrote: Religion is not what I want. It's a heavy burden on my back. I don't like the concept of hell, I don't like the concept of slavery to any deity.

I'm not making a judgement here, and I hope I don't come across as condescending, but perhaps you ought to search for a way to rid yourself of this burden if it troubles you so much? Doesn't have to be anything too drastic - you're already making a start with your opinions of hell, for instance.

(February 14, 2013 at 11:18 am)AtlasS Wrote: Evolution goes against my believe. Still I study it seriously, I even tried to link it with my religion. Even though parts of it contradict religion, I never denied it.

This too is admirable. There are many evolutionary biologists who manage to be religious as well. Just beware the trap of embracing religion at the expense of reality, where the two may conflict.

Quote:Religion is not what I want. It's a heavy burden on my back. I don't like the concept of hell, I don't like the concept of slavery to any deity.

I don't like those things, either.

What you should ask yourself is, why are you jumping through so many hoops for it? Why defend something when it is both something you wish was not true and something which is almost certainly not true, regardless of your wishes? You justify your beliefs in precisely the same ways as adherents to many other religions, and there is nothing concrete which makes a single one of them any more likely to be true compared to any other.

If there is a god, or gods, in this universe, chances are extremely high that none of them that we worship are the correct ones. Therefore, the fates of everyone here are going to be the same, no matter what. Might as well let all that shit go and enjoy a life of freedom.

"If God were real, the Word of God Bible wouldn't have to be interpeted", "God would give us understanding,"

This is what I've read (mostly). I don't think you're getting my point. It would be nice for God to do these things, but you guys say this stuff so matter-of-a-factly. God DIDN'T do these things (obviously), one of the core elements in religion is faith. If God did this, then there would be no challenge to remain faithful. We'd all hold a belief in God because we would all think he was real. That would eliminate the "faith" element in Christianity.

(February 14, 2013 at 6:13 pm)TheLameMayWalk Wrote: If God did this, then there would be no challenge to remain faithful. We'd all hold a belief in God because we would all think he was real. That would eliminate the "faith" element in Christianity.

I have never heard a convincing argument as to why a 'faith' element should be necessary. Because, of course, the 'faith' element is just another way for you to CYA when people ask tough questions about your god.

When you realize that faith in Yahweh spontaneously appeared in a single location in the world and stayed there for thousands of years, the artificial nature of the whole thing is obvious. Not one single cult of Yahweh appeared anywhere outside of Mesopotamia. When people living at a sufficient distance from there started making up their own religions, they invented different gods with different characteristics, and their claims are no less valid than yours.

Also, P1k.

(February 14, 2013 at 6:22 pm)Ryantology Wrote:

(February 14, 2013 at 6:13 pm)TheLameMayWalk Wrote: If God did this, then there would be no challenge to remain faithful. We'd all hold a belief in God because we would all think he was real. That would eliminate the "faith" element in Christianity.

I have never heard a convincing argument as to why a 'faith' element should be necessary. Because, of course, the 'faith' element is just another way for you to CYA when people ask tough questions about your god.

When you realize that faith in Yahweh spontaneously appeared in a single location in the world and stayed there for thousands of years, the artificial nature of the whole thing is obvious. Not one single cult of Yahweh appeared anywhere outside of Mesopotamia. When people living at a sufficient distance from there started making up their own religions, they invented different gods with different characteristics, and their claims are no less valid than yours.

Also, P1k.

I still don't have an answer to the "what makes your religion more valid than others" other than the element of faith. But I will work on a more constructed response to that inquiry.

I guess it helps me (from your POV), but faith is a very crucial element in religion. It seperates those who truly believe from those who believe for the sake of believing. The people in the latter group do not truly worship Him, but believe for their own good and for their own salvation.

(February 14, 2013 at 6:13 pm)TheLameMayWalk Wrote: "If God were real, the Word of God Bible wouldn't have to be interpeted", "God would give us understanding,"

This is what I've read (mostly). I don't think you're getting my point. It would be nice for God to do these things, but you guys say this stuff so matter-of-a-factly. God DIDN'T do these things (obviously), one of the core elements in religion is faith. If God did this, then there would be no challenge to remain faithful. We'd all hold a belief in God because we would all think he was real. That would eliminate the "faith" element in Christianity.

Which would mean that we would all go to heaven which is what god wants, right?

So why is faith of such fundamental importance?

(February 14, 2013 at 6:28 pm)Baalzebutt Wrote:

(February 14, 2013 at 6:13 pm)TheLameMayWalk Wrote: "If God were real, the Word of God Bible wouldn't have to be interpeted", "God would give us understanding,"

This is what I've read (mostly). I don't think you're getting my point. It would be nice for God to do these things, but you guys say this stuff so matter-of-a-factly. God DIDN'T do these things (obviously), one of the core elements in religion is faith. If God did this, then there would be no challenge to remain faithful. We'd all hold a belief in God because we would all think he was real. That would eliminate the "faith" element in Christianity.

Which would mean that we would all go to heaven which is what god wants, right?

So why is faith of such fundamental importance?

I believe He'd want those who deserve it to go.

(February 14, 2013 at 6:29 pm)TheLameMayWalk Wrote:

(February 14, 2013 at 6:28 pm)Baalzebutt Wrote: Which would mean that we would all go to heaven which is what god wants, right?

So why is faith of such fundamental importance?

I believe He'd want those who deserve it to go.

So faith is about deserving to go? So when Jeffrey Dahmer converted to xtianity before he was killed, he now deserves to go to heaven?

(February 14, 2013 at 6:32 pm)Baalzebutt Wrote:

(February 14, 2013 at 6:29 pm)TheLameMayWalk Wrote: I believe He'd want those who deserve it to go.

So faith is about deserving to go? So when Jeffrey Dahmer converted to xtianity before he was killed, he now deserves to go to heaven?

I believe this is what people on forums call a "straw man". I never said anything like that. Especially when you read my post in the other thread where I spoke of doing good deeds in the name of God. Dahmer was a terrible man: he maimed and murdered, obviously breaking commandments and going against Christianity (and almost any other religion he could've been part of)

(February 14, 2013 at 6:32 pm)Baalzebutt Wrote: So faith is about deserving to go? So when Jeffrey Dahmer converted to xtianity before he was killed, he now deserves to go to heaven?

I suppose he would in the same sense that Darth Vader converted to the good side of the Force just before he died.