(February 26, 2013 at 12:10 am)Question Mark Wrote:

(February 25, 2013 at 11:58 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: So in other words, God is a nihilist?

I don't really see how you come to that conclusion. Could you please explain how you reached it?

I meant in an analogous sense. If God is all powerful, then he can will anything. If good is what is in accordance to his will, and if he could will anything, then what is good could be anything.


Also, is what God wills good?

(February 25, 2013 at 11:50 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote:

(February 25, 2013 at 11:47 pm)Drich Wrote: Sin is not a standard apart from God. Sin is anything not in the Expressed will of God. In otherwords God can not sin because anything God does is in His expressed will.

So it wouldn't be a sin for God to go back on his salvation promise and send let's say all Christian gingers to hell just because they have red hair?

all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Meaning all deserve hell, no matter hair color. If God took back our salvation for whatever reason He would be justified in doing so.

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(February 25, 2013 at 11:53 pm)Question Mark Wrote: God cannot do sin, because sin is defined by the theistic as any and all actions, thoughts, predications of thoughts or actions, or anything else whatsoever, that doesn't comply with god's whims. Therefore anything that he does is condoned by him, and so therefore is by definition not sin.

In short, it's a double standard when applied to humans. Sin is intrinsically bound to god existing, and since he's not been proven to yet, the concept of sin is fallacious until his existence is proven to be true.

Again what does "proof" look like? If you don't know then how do you know it hasn't been proven?

(February 26, 2013 at 12:19 am)Esquilax Wrote: I'd go further than that, and say that original sin isn't, and could not have been a sin at all. If Adam and Eve had only gained a concept of good and evil after they had eaten the fruit, then how could they have known that disobeying god was an evil act? How could they even have had a concept of things like betrayal, disobedience or lies, given that all they had ever known was perfect goodness? Not only did they not have a metric by which to measure morality, according to Genesis they didn't even have a knowledge that there was such a thing as good and evil, before committing the first "evil" act.

Beyond that, I love how when they gain knowledge of things that are evil their first instinct is to cover up in order to be good, yet god's all like "fuck y'all!" anyway.

Sorry, I don't mean to derail the thread, it's just that that always bothered me.

True. God created humans without intellect and then punished them for acting like it.
RE: The OP question, here's a thought: Isaiah 45:7 pretty much informs that god is sin.

(February 26, 2013 at 12:44 am)Nobody Wrote: RE: The OP question, here's a thought: Isaiah 45:7 pretty much informs that god is sin.

Even without that verse, god is sin: without god and his whims we wouldn't have sin. It all issues from god, and it's only doublethink that keeps christians thinking that their deity is somehow blameless in the presence of sin (and also evil, since I count those as different things) in the world.

[quote='Esquilax' pid='406455' dateline='1361852365']
I'd go further than that, and say that original sin isn't, and could not have been a sin at all. If Adam and Eve had only gained a concept of good and evil after they had eaten the fruit, then how could they have known that disobeying god was an evil act? [\quote] maybe I'm missing some thing here because for me the obvious answer is because God told them not to eat of that tree.

[Quote]How could they even have had a concept of things like betrayal, disobedience or lies, given that all they had ever known was perfect goodness? Not only did they nothave a metric by which to measure morality, according to Genesis they didn't even have a knowledge that there was such a thing as good and evil, before committing the first "evil" act.[/quote] you misunderstand what the "metric" of the knowledge of good and evil means. To be without sin does not mean one is automatically naive or unaware of complex emotional thought. The angels are without sin, and yet are fully aware of all the wickedness and evil in this world.

Drich, did Christ in his earthly life go through the same temptations as man does?

Isa 45:7 I made the light and the darkness. I bring peace, and I cause trouble. I, The Lord, do all things.

Yeah, you better watch out for that God... He a real bad apple. That one..

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(February 26, 2013 at 12:58 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: Drich, did Christ in his earthly life go through the same temptations as man does?

The only recorded temptations of Christ were in the desert after his 40 day fast. If you are asking if He was tempted as a boy, I don't know, as the bible does not say.

During the fast, would it have been a sin for Jesus to give into those temptations?

(February 26, 2013 at 12:53 am)Drich Wrote: you misunderstand what the "metric" of the knowledge of good and evil means. To be without sin does not mean one is automatically naive or unaware of complex emotional thought. The angels are without sin, and yet are fully aware of all the wickedness and evil in this world.

Adam and Eve weren't ashamed of their nakedness until after they ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

It was then that they became consciously aware of their nudity and assumed an insecurity about that.
Prior to eating from the tree, they could not have possessed a consciousness of good an evil, when god told them to eat of the tree that bore the fruit of knowledge would make them like unto god in having that awareness.

Giving them orders not to eat of the fruit required they be cognizant of the parallels between obedience and disobedience, in order to elect to obey and comply with god's ordinance to abstain from the tree of knowledge and it's fruit. In order to give those commands god had to know they did not know what good or evil was in order to make an informed choice to obey or disobey him.

And then in the midst of that the cherubim that guarded paradise from satan, whom god let to be lord of the earth and who acts only by god's will, were removed from their guard post so that the satan gained entry into paradise when god is omnipresent?
And if god is omnipresent, after the eating of the fruit when Adam and Eve hid from god's presence, why is it that he had to call out and ask where they were? How could humans hide from god when he's omnipresent and omniscient?
And how could omni-benevolence relieve the cherubim from their posts in the exact same moment that then allowed his antithesis to enter into paradise and tempt the first humans to eat of the tree that could only have served as a temptation in the first place because god put it there?

When omniscience would have known exactly what was to transpire because a sovereign deity predestined eternity.

I think what the OP fails to address is that there is no such thing as sin. There are only actions - judged by your peers - praised by those who approve and condemned by those who don't. On that premise, and knowing that sin is only a subjective term slapped on a label, I submit that the god of the bible did indeed sin and that he is the most guilty of all sinners.

He is full of anger, jealousy, violence and rage. He is envious and slothful, and I don't think there is anyone that can dispute that he is the most vain being in the universe.
To answer the OP: Sin is a merely a label, not an unchanging supernatural constant and the god, jehovah is the most abhorrent sinner of all time. He should be begging forgiveness of us every day for what he purposely did to the human race. Well, then again, I don't go around asking apologies from fictional characters in poorly written books.

(February 26, 2013 at 1:03 am)Drich Wrote: Isa 45:7 I made the light and the darkness. I bring peace, and I cause trouble. I, The Lord, do all things.

Yeah, you better watch out for that God... He a real bad apple. That one..

Of course he is. When people create powerful villains in any story they tend to be real bad apples.