(March 7, 2013 at 7:55 pm)Insanity x Wrote:

(March 7, 2013 at 7:48 pm)mo66 Wrote: Only the fundamentals are innate. Islamic law is certainly NOT innate, otherwise why would God bother to tell is when we could have figured it out ourselves. No, it's not innate. But fundamental morality IS innate( e.g I already figured out lying was wrong as a child before I was taught anything)

My empathy and experience contradicts what Islamic law calls right and wrong.

That's precisely the whole point of Islamic law lol That's exactly why it was revealed, it would be very difficult for us to "codify" the "correct" moral laws. "Correct" here means what God intends for us.

(March 7, 2013 at 7:48 pm)mo66 Wrote: Logic? Could you elaborate?

Well there is properly basic praise. Then there is levels based on perception of the action.

But logic is one dimension of analyzing why an action is wrong. It isn't the case that logic is necessary for all good actions but it is the case that logic is needed for many good actions. It is not necessarily logic is needed to perceive why an action is evil, but reasoning is needed.

Logic however is needed to comprehend language, a situation, the complexity of other situations.

For example, why should I obey traffic rules. You use the following logic:

Severe harm sometimes comes out disobeying traffic rules and even deaths.
I am against harming (innocent) humans and causing death to them.
Therefore it's moral if I obey traffic rules to make it less likely that I cause severe harm or death to (innocent) humans.

In other words, you have primary belief in a moral. But logic is necessary to branch out that principle to other things.

(March 7, 2013 at 8:00 pm)mo66 Wrote: That's precisely the whole point of Islamic law lol That's exactly why it was revealed, it would be very difficult for us to "codify" the "correct" moral laws. "Correct" here means what God intends for us.

Why would a god create humans with an 'innate' morality that contradicts the morality that it wishes us to live by? Seems a bizarre thing to do.

(March 7, 2013 at 8:00 pm)mo66 Wrote:

(March 7, 2013 at 7:55 pm)Insanity x Wrote: My empathy and experience contradicts what Islamic law calls right and wrong.

That's precisely the whole point of Islamic law lol That's exactly why it was revealed, it would be very difficult for us to "codify" the "correct" moral laws. "Correct" here means what God intends for us.

If what God wants of me is something I find morally wrong, then I say fuck him!

(March 7, 2013 at 8:00 pm)mo66 Wrote:

(March 7, 2013 at 7:55 pm)Insanity x Wrote: My empathy and experience contradicts what Islamic law calls right and wrong.

That's precisely the whole point of Islamic law lol That's exactly why it was revealed, it would be very difficult for us to "codify" the "correct" moral laws. "Correct" here means what God intends for us.

Check out this thread: http://atheistforums.org/thread-17564.html

Quote:But fundamental morality IS innate( e.g I already figured out lying was wrong as a child before I was taught anything)

So, you are not a politician then?

(March 7, 2013 at 8:02 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:

(March 7, 2013 at 7:48 pm)mo66 Wrote: Logic? Could you elaborate?

Well there is properly basic praise. Then there is levels based on perception of the action.

But logic is one dimension of analyzing why an action is wrong. It isn't the case that logic is necessary for all good actions but it is the case that logic is needed for many good actions. It is not necessarily logic is needed to perceive why an action is evil, but reasoning is needed.

Logic however is needed to comprehend language, a situation, the complexity of other situations.

For example, why should I obey traffic rules. You use the following logic:

Severe harm sometimes comes out disobeying traffic rules and even deaths.
I am against harming (innocent) humans and causing death to them.
Therefore it's moral if I obey traffic rules to make it less likely that I cause severe harm or death to (innocent) humans.

In other words, you have primary belief in a moral. But logic is necessary to branch out that principle to other things.

But do you agree that using logic sometimes leads to actions which the mainstream would regard as "evil" or "immoral"?

(March 7, 2013 at 8:08 pm)mo66 Wrote: But do you agree that using logic sometimes leads to actions which the mainstream would regard as "evil" or "immoral"?

I don't agree or disagree with this statement. You'll have to provide an example with sound logic used to apply a principle believed in innately that is then regarded by most of humanity as evil.

mo66 can you elaborate on how you managed to learn not to lie before you managed to walk or talk or do anything?

(March 7, 2013 at 8:05 pm)Insanity x Wrote:

(March 7, 2013 at 8:00 pm)mo66 Wrote: That's precisely the whole point of Islamic law lol That's exactly why it was revealed, it would be very difficult for us to "codify" the "correct" moral laws. "Correct" here means what God intends for us.

Why would a god create humans with an 'innate' morality that contradicts the morality that it wishes us to live by? Seems a bizarre thing to do.

There's actually a comprehensive answer to this question but the backbone is this; God has clarified what He intends, and what He doesn't through the use of revelation. So in the end, we know for a fact what God actually wants.

Now, here's a question; Islamic law only applies to Muslims, God doesn't intend Christians to abstain from alcohol or Atheists to refrain from pork etc. So why would God "reveal" codified laws only to those who believe, what about disbelievers? Here's where the innate morality comes into play. God has essentially allowed all humans to start off with a "level playing field" if you like, which is subconscious morality. As for those who believe in Him, then they have an extra criterion, which is Divine legislation.