(March 12, 2013 at 9:15 pm)catfish Wrote: It's still a human, no matter what adjective you attach to it.

Fetus*

And fetuses are not human beings. No matter how much you'd like them to be.

(March 13, 2013 at 3:33 pm)kiwimac Wrote:

(March 13, 2013 at 2:57 pm)The Germans are coming Wrote: I would like to ask you and every other person in opposition to abortion, how you contribute to creating a sociaty in which a mother or father can have a amily or be a single mum or dad without facing finacial ruin.

One reason why abortion was legalised under a leftwing goverment here, was due to the social stigmatising which single mums received from conservatives.

I do not oppose abortion rights for women.

Damn!!!

FAIL

and an enormous one! I read your post and thought catfish`s stuff was yours.

embaressing

I am sorry.

(March 13, 2013 at 4:28 pm)CleanShavenJesus Wrote: And fetuses are not human beings. No matter how much you'd like them to be.

I'll ask you the same question then.
If a human fetus is not human, what is it?

Patiently awaiting your denial, deflection and fluff...
.

Meh, easy way to kill the whole bit. Neither are moral issues, they are legal issues. Sure, you can moralize endlessly about either and ultimately that's between you and the wall. There are plenty of good reasons why morality and legality are not entirely (or in some cases remotely) synonymous, sufficeth to say that a fetus (here) is not granted legal personhood - which is the thing that confers legal protection. Not that this protection is universal or unassailable, as the other example in the question clearly demonstrates that even with such protections in place your life can still be terminated.

IOW, it doesn't actually matter whether or not a fetus is a human being, as human beings can still be terminated due to circumstance. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you wanted to really press the issue you'd find a fetus that was terminated through violent crime and attempt to charge that person with murder in the 1st. Not wax on endlessly about whether or not it's moral or immoral, human or not.

I do believe there have been cases where a very pregnant woman was murdered, and the baby died too, and the killer was charged with two counts of murder. Don't know the outcomes off hand though.
But on the personhood front, isn't a fetus more of a person than a corporation? I'm not saying let's grant personhood to the unborn, just pointing out the totally wacko legal/political priorities.

Please find me that case (I doubt that both charges stuck). In the meantime, lets have fun imagining.

Say the defense hinged on how we could only charge for the murder of the mother, and that the fetus is a separate entity (not granted such protections)

-that could be used as precedent in a future case that argued that a women does not have a right to choose to terminate what has been (successfully) deemed an entity separate to them (and also heretofore not granted any protections as a separate entity).

-or, it could be used as reinforcement of our inability to criminalize abortion based upon our inability to convict someone on a count of murder.

A case like that could be a shit sandwich for either side honestly.

(its not whacko, it's a give and take that evolves through experience- we leave the door open to do it this way because it's been a very successful way of doing things thusfar - something that is not -currently- considered illegal can always be argued to be illegal - and whether or not the argument succeeds is what sets precedent..and precedent can determine policy - precedent or lack there-off is why you hope/shop for a judge/jury..hell, the Supreme Court is a veritable precedent-to-policy factory..not in volume, mind you, but in impact)

There's a slew of cases that come up for the killer being charged with multiple counts (three counts for a guy who killed a woman pregnant with twins in LA). But this one caught my eye… evidently it's a state law in North Carolina (and, according to the article, 37 other states!) that if a person kills a pregnant woman, even if the killer is unaware she is pregnant, s/he can be charged with multiple counts of murder. I would think it would be an appeals nightmare.

Quote:In 2011, the bill was introduced again and passed. Governor Bev Perdue signed it into law in April. North Carolina was the last state in the South and the 37th state in the country to pass a similar law.

http://www.wcnc.com/news/Suspect-could-f...00078.html

Death penalty- Don't agree with it

Abortion- Should be legal,I agree with it.

(March 13, 2013 at 5:35 pm)catfish Wrote:

(March 13, 2013 at 4:28 pm)CleanShavenJesus Wrote: And fetuses are not human beings. No matter how much you'd like them to be.

I'll ask you the same question then.
If a human fetus is not human, what is it?

Patiently awaiting your denial, deflection and fluff...
.

It is a human fetus. It is not a human. You think because the term "human fetus" has the word "human" at the beginning, it means the fetus is a human being. It is not. It is simply a fetus.

(March 13, 2013 at 8:30 pm)CleanShavenJesus Wrote: It is a human fetus. It is not a human. You think because the term "human fetus" has the word "human" at the beginning, it means the fetus is a human being. It is not. It is simply a fetus.

At what point do you think it becomes human? What was it before that?