I'm not saying that secularism can't also go too far or manifest badly. Of course it can. We're all people at various levels of maturity each with our own quirks and flaws. Anyone who uses secularism to deride religion is not helping any more than those who want to keep to themselves. But then what should we wish for?

End the experiment of banding together with a secular structure to prevent any faction from dominating and preventing any from suppressing others? Should we break up into regional theocracies where we can control every aspect of what our children come into contact with? I'm not sure how the boundaries will get drawn or private property divided and redistributed. But lets suppose you could do it. Would you prefer that ?

I think you need to look very specifically at what you think schools are teaching that you feel undermines your religious beliefs. If it is science you really need to rethink what the bible is for. Surely it is not a science reference? There need be no conflict between anything that science discovers and what you believe about your god. Many scientists are Christians and they have no problem with the big bang, the age of the universe or evolution of life here on earth. I don't really know what your objection is but you can't expect us to thin out the facts of science to just those which don't contradict either the bible or any other holy book. That would be unreasonable.

I teach in a public school and no kid has ever known that I am an agnostic (and atheist). I have a good relationship with my students and I would never want that to undermine their core beliefs, leastwise not at the tender age of 13. I am only there to watch over the development of their capacity to reason (maths), not their beliefs. I'm not ashamed of my beliefs, I just don't think the best way to acquire them is through direct transmission. I got here on my own and so can they, or not if they choose otherwise.

I said ALL our people. Even kids. Allowing kids to be brainwashed is not something I want my tax dollars to go to. You do get to pick where your kids go to school, but I don't agree with it. My sister sent her kids to a Christian school and all I saw was brainwashing. I always hate it when people say they "chose" their religion by heart and it was not imposed when I take one look at their family and they all share the same religion. My nieces are Christian because their mom and dad told them that it is the only way to heaven and because church told them the same thing. Now school followed their lead. It is not acceptable that while they should be learning facts, they are learning about godly stuff. You are taking away valuable time from them and they have no choice but to accept. You will say that we shouldn't have the right to teach them otherwise either. We are not. We are not sending them to schools where they say, "Be atheist or else..." Time in schools are spent teaching all the other important stuff and the absence of religion is a bonus. That is not brainwashing. That is education.

Tax dollars going towards education are for the purpose of one common system we all agree we need. We all need mathematics, science, etc. Anywhere you go in the world you will need those basics. Religion is not something we have to agree in, so no, tax dollars should not be headed towards teaching your kids godly affairs. If you want to do that, pay for it privately. Unless you want to pay for a school where they teach my children that bisexual relationships are the ultimate happiness road and that if you are not there you will never reach your full potential regardless of your sexual inclinations.

(March 16, 2013 at 2:03 pm)jrsm_10 Wrote: "Be atheist or else..."

Plenty of colleges are organized like that, including some state schools. I had plenty of classes like that in college. One class was history, 30% of the class was devoted to discussing why Christianity was an evil religion.

They have entire departments devoted to that sort of stuff in Higher Ed, I'm not sure if they get money from the government, many of the schools are land grant schools though. If you want to find a lot of atheists, go to a Religious Studies or Biblical Studies department at a State school, you will find a whole lot of people that get some portion of their salary from trying to prove that the Bible is not an authentic document.


Whatever you teach, you are brainwashing people in that subject, whether it is multiculturalism or one culture. The only response to that is to realize that you should be extremely careful in how you present yourself and what you say, because to say something false is very destructive.

I'm starting to view being put on ignore by jstrodel as an honor. Are you an able critic? *click* "I don't like your attitude." /ignored

Granted, I may have gone a little far myself, but Esquilax has been the model of reason, temperance, and diplomacy. He just wants to tune out anything he can't deal with. Highly rational.

(March 16, 2013 at 2:33 pm)apophenia Wrote:



Granted, I may have gone a little far myself, but Esquilax has been the model of reason, temperance, and diplomacy.

You were just irreverent and witty. I love that in a woman ...

I agree about Esquilax she is very balanced and even handed all the time.

(March 16, 2013 at 2:25 pm)jstrodel Wrote: They have entire departments devoted to that sort of stuff in Higher Ed, I'm not sure if they get money from the government, many of the schools are land grant schools though. If you want to find a lot of atheists, go to a Religious Studies or Biblical Studies department at a State school, you will find a whole lot of people that get some portion of their salary from trying to prove that the Bible is not an authentic document.

Are you kidding me? I took Religious Studies as one of my subjects at school and college. I was the only atheist in the class both times. In fact during the 7 years in school and college I only knew one member of the Religious Studies departments that was not a christian. Most of the RS department at school were leaders of the local churches. Most were fantastic teachers and their personal beliefs barely crossed over into the subject. Other than one who ended up taking me to the side and trying to convince me to leave the subject.

(March 16, 2013 at 2:33 pm)apophenia Wrote: I'm starting to view being put on ignore by jstrodel as an honor. Are you an able critic? *click* "I don't like your attitude." /ignored

Granted, I may have gone a little far myself, but Esquilax has been the model of reason, temperance, and diplomacy. He just wants to tune out anything he can't deal with. Highly rational.

Well, Esquilax has been pretty reasonable in this thread, but I've lost my temper around the guy in a few others before. Not to the level that his ignoring me is at all justified, but hey, let's be honest. I sort of feel that if a guy like Strodel feels he needs to shut me down, I'm doing something right, anyway. It might bother me if I thought he was actually thinking about any of my posts before he responded to them, but... argh, okay, beating a dead horse.

Anyway Apophenia, think of it like an exclusive club. We're special!

Quote:I agree about Esquilax she is very balanced and even handed all the time.

She's also a guy. But thank you all the same, it's a high compliment coming from a pair of rational individuals like you and Apo.

(March 16, 2013 at 12:13 pm)jstrodel Wrote: America is 80% Christian. There is nothing unreasonable about wanting the system to reflect the interests of the majority, or at least allow the majority an option of putting their tax dollars elsewhere.

You don't realize how authoritarian you are.

The Constitution is designed to prevent tyranny of the majority.

The rights of the majority are respected
if the rights of the minority are protected

The one right of the power denied the people is the power to oppress a minority.

You want to practice your faith, practice it but don't force it on others.

And no, teaching science in the science class does not constitute an alternate religion being forced on your kids.

(March 16, 2013 at 3:26 pm)Esquilax Wrote:

Quote:I agree about Esquilax she is very balanced and even handed all the time.

She's also a guy. But thank you all the same, it's a high compliment coming from a pair of rational individuals like you and Apo.

Egad, I've become Mr. McGoo. Sorry about that but the observation about the even handedness stands.