You are using the Romans as an example of ethical conduct in the ancient world? The words "filthy apologist" sting deeply.

(March 17, 2013 at 8:15 pm)jstrodel Wrote: Protestant churches I have been in are not really concerned with contraception very much. The Catholics are more focused on that.

Good for them, they're okay with a rubber.

Quote:The issue is not really that simple. Either you accept pre-marital sex or you don't. That goes along with abortion and and the lust of modernity to use science to strip sexuality of its sacredness and turn it into an amusement park for adults.

Why can't it be both sacred and an amusement park, I don;t understand why a choice between those two has to be made (I never had to make a choice like that.....).

Quote:The Bible is not against women. It is against pre-marital sex because it is pro women. It understands that, contrary to some of the politically correct teachings you may have heard, only women are able to carry children. To restrict pre-marital sex is to show great love to women, who must deal with the pain and economic hardships surrounding unwanted pregnancies.

Which is why protestants don't have a problem with it, because they're cool with contraception - and that eliminates the objection...right?

(March 17, 2013 at 8:12 pm)Ryantology Wrote: Church forbids sex for pleasure even with a spouse.

1. Which church, and what's your support?

2. Red herring. If people followed the church's rules, AIDS would not be a problem. The argument that the Catholic opposition to birth control fuels the spread of AIDS is possibly the stupidest atheist argument going.

The issue of extra-marital sex does bring up the question of why god would make sexual stimulation so easy to achieve, possible at such a young age, possible to achieve in a variety of ways, so incredibly pleasurable... and then restrict it in every possible way and invent myriad diseases with which to punish anyone who strays from those boundaries. It's sadistic in the extreme.

(March 18, 2013 at 8:04 am)John V Wrote: 2. Red herring. If people followed the church's rules, AIDS would not be a problem. The argument that the Catholic opposition to birth control fuels the spread of AIDS is possibly the stupidest atheist argument going.

Because if you only have sex after marriage - God stops you getting AIDS from your sexual partner?

Or perhaps GOD introduced HIV/SIV viruses 32000 years ago in knowing that the majority of the planet would ignore one of his many churches commandments about an invention of human creation to prevent the spread of disease and unwanted pregnancies.

It all makes sense now.

(March 18, 2013 at 8:04 am)John V Wrote: The argument that the Catholic opposition to birth control fuels the spread of AIDS is possibly the stupidest atheist argument going.

Seriously?! I don't have the words to properly express my utter disgust at the sheer stupidity & inhumanity of this statement. You do realise that thousands of people have died as a direct result of that single piece of doctrine? If I could give negative rep, this would earn you it.

(March 18, 2013 at 9:36 am)NoMoreFaith Wrote: Because if you only have sex after marriage - God stops you getting AIDS from your sexual partner?

Er, yes, two people who wait for marriage to have sex and then are faithful to each other aren't going to get AIDS from sex, condom or no.

(March 18, 2013 at 10:18 am)John V Wrote:

(March 18, 2013 at 9:36 am)NoMoreFaith Wrote: Because if you only have sex after marriage - God stops you getting AIDS from your sexual partner?

Er, yes, two people who wait for marriage to have sex and then are faithful to each other aren't going to get AIDS from sex, condom or no.

Unless they were born HIV positive, or otherwise infected. You do know that sex isn't the only way to become HIV positive right?

I would say however, that the original posters opening statement would at least be rejected under the heading of "Free Will" by theism. If I was playing devils advocate - I would be saying that God gives us the choice to Sin, and the point isn't what God can make you do, but rather that God allows you the choice too, merely that he's going to kick your ass later for using the free will he gave you.

(March 18, 2013 at 8:04 am)John V Wrote:

(March 17, 2013 at 8:12 pm)Ryantology Wrote: Church forbids sex for pleasure even with a spouse.

1. Which church, and what's your support?

2. Red herring. If people followed the church's rules, AIDS would not be a problem. The argument that the Catholic opposition to birth control fuels the spread of AIDS is possibly the stupidest atheist argument going.

1. The Catholic Church. The granddaddy to whatever denomination you follow, unless of course you are a Coptic or Orthodox.

2. What about the indigenous belief systems of the peoples of Africa? What about their cultures? They don't count? They've been around for thousands of years, and these people should just scrap them because they are invalid in the face of Christianity? I take serious issue with people who go to other cultures and basically tell them, "Yep, everything you believe is wrong. You are wrong. Your ancestors were wrong, and since they weren't Christians they're in hell or purgatory now, which is where you'll go too if you don't accept Christ as your Lord and Savior!"
Catholicism is on a rapid rise throughout parts of Africa. The use of condoms significantly lowers rate at which HIV is spread. Telling people it's sinful to use condoms increases the rate of infection. Because, surprise!! People tend to adopt certain aspects of their new faith, but often still follow their traditional ways as well. Meaning, they'll go to Mass and confession, but not necessarily give up their mistresses, which has a long tradition in many African cultures.
We can argue about the validity of African cultures or how much "better" Western culture is, but the fact is people like to hold on to their cultures as it is a part of their larger sense of identity. There isn't a continuum of "good" to "bad" cultures, it's just cultural differences.

(March 18, 2013 at 10:24 am)festive1 Wrote: Catholicism is on a rapid rise throughout parts of Africa. The use of condoms significantly lowers rate at which HIV is spread. Telling people it's sinful to use condoms increases the rate of infection.

Only if they care enough about sin to obey.

Quote:Because, surprise!! People tend to adopt certain aspects of their new faith, but often still follow their traditional ways as well.

And, they apparently don't care enough about sin to obey.

This is why this position is so freaking stupid.

People who are sleeping around and not using condoms aren't using them because:

1. It feels better.
2. An opportunity comes up and they don't happen to have one, and don't care about the risks.