(March 29, 2013 at 7:02 pm)Rhythm Wrote: The problem, is that GC would rather pull your christian card then put his boy on the hook for anything. Seems like a disagreement between you two christians. Hammer that shit out, eh?
(I'd make it snappy too, won't be long before another christian comes in to explain how you're both full of shit, and he's bringing the good word right fresh from heaven)

The challenge was to Bbutt, what's your problem with a good challenge to an unbeliever.

Oh, back to the original though, we are "God's Children" and so yes, we "act like gods". Even the bible says we are gods (Psalm 82:6-7). So, "why should we not expect of god exactly what he expects of us?" We should. And this is in fact what we get. This is most evident in the life of Jesus, but I'm going to assume that isn't what anyone here is looking for.

The God of the OT, which I'm sure is what you are looking at, is not as bad as skepticsannotatedbible makes it seem. If we're going to assume the God of the bible exists for the time being like it says in the OP, you also need to assume other Christian principles (I'll point them out as we go). Both are expect to be sinless. That's the big one. Since murder is a sin, we should not murder and neither should God. We'll find in Genesis 4 there is already murder. Some will say that God murdered in the Noah story. Nope. Currently, God is our life support. Right now, he is not just allowing but willing us all to live. While living, if you piss him off enough, he may take away that privilege. This is only "murder" if he's not the one supplying life in the first place. Therefore, Sodom and Gomorrah isn't an issue either. There is also nothing wrong with a just war. However, if God commands the Israelites go to war, it doesn't make the war just. The plagues were just, the war on Canaan was just, David's wars were just, Babylon capturing Israel was just.

Being that Baazls response was to Tex, who is comfortable with god creating satan......you're actually "challenging" them both. That's a pretty generous way of describing your interaction with either, but I'm feeling generous.

I, like you, am comfortable with your god not having created satan - we'll just add it to the list of all the shit your god didn't create. Whether or not your god created satan is irrelevant as to why you are arguing that he didn't. Even if he did, you would still argue otherwise. It's all about an excuse, clearly, in this discussion.

(March 29, 2013 at 7:25 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Being that Baazls response was to Tex, who is comfortable with god creating satan......you're actually "challenging" them both. That's a pretty generous way of describing your interaction with either, but I'm feeling generous.

I, like you, am comfortable with your god not having created satan - we'll just add it to the list of all the shit your god didn't create. Whether or not your god created satan is irrelevant as to why you are arguing that he didn't. Even if he did, you would still argue otherwise. It's all about an excuse, clearly, in this discussion.

I never implied an excuse, I gave an explanation of a loving God that could not have created evil. Though before creation God was not a judge, He had nothing to set as judge over, He became the judge after Lucifer fell to his own self righteousness. My question to anyone who believes God created evil ie. satan, does one create something he would so abhor just to be judge of the very thing he hates? There is no scriptural support for God creating evil. There is substantial support that God could not create anything outside of who He is.

Laying aside that scripture is the poorest authority for the actions of any god - what it does and does not, or did and did not do.....I think the trouble you'll find is that some people are uncomfortable with proposing that there are things in this world that god did not create. It's simple to understand why. For many, your gods authority rests upon the totality of his creative ability and force. Creating a list of things he had no part in creating (however small...and GC, how many things would you be willing to add to this list, because if evil is it, well, your beliefs become excuses) begins to question an authority based upon that creation.

The objection is raised because some like to claim that their goddidit, all. This is the brunt of it's claim to kingship. Then the skeptic asks, "all the bad shit?". Some believers respond. "Well, no no, I mean, he created it all except the bad shit". This is entirely unsatisfying and exceedingly transparent.

(March 30, 2013 at 3:28 pm)Godschild Wrote: I never implied an excuse, I gave an explanation of a loving God that could not have created evil. Though before creation God was not a judge, He had nothing to set as judge over, He became the judge after Lucifer fell to his own self righteousness. My question to anyone who believes God created evil ie. satan, does one create something he would so abhor just to be judge of the very thing he hates? There is no scriptural support for God creating evil. There is substantial support that God could not create anything outside of who He is.

So, God created everything, except evil, yet evil exists as something God did not create and has no direct control over. The only explanation is that The Adversary is a God in his own right, who is powerful enough to constantly thwart God, and that is why people have homo sex and listen to gangster rap.

I like how you are questioning the sense of your religion, but those are questions you have to answer, not us. Why does God create a being he knows will betray him and introduce evil into the world? There are only two logical answers

1. God is omnipotent and omniscient and desired to have evil introduced into the world. A being who knows everything does everything purposefully. He creates a being he knows is going to rebel and spread evil in his world. This is intentional and entirely by God's design. Evil can only persist in a world governed by an omnipotent being if that being wants it there.

2. God is neither omnipotent or omniscient. He lacked the power to prevent the spread of evil or do anything about it now. Lucifer is a being of nearly-equal power who has enjoyed much success in his endeavors to subvert God's will and there isn't anything God can do about it.

Epicurus had this shit all figured out long before the Jews ripped off half a dozen other myths and invented Jesus.

An interesting question was brought to my attention. Okay, I actually saw it on a meme, but it is still relevant.

Why would the devil punish you for not believing in god? That is like the Grinch punishing you for not liking Santa.

It is logical to assume that hell would, therefore, not be a place of eternal damnation, but rather a gentlemen's club where common camaraderie was celebrated.

It depends on the belief structure. As a child, I remember seeing paintings of hell, where demons were taking an active role in tormenting the souls of the damned. So I had the impression that hell was the domain of Satan and the demons, and that wicked souls were handed to them for torment. As if they were working with god to punish evildoers. The JWs don't teach a fiery hell, so it wasn't something frightening to me, it was just someone else's false belief. I did think that if Satan was allowed to run hell, he'd probably want to make it as fun and pleasant a place as possible to draw as many people away from god as he could. So the concept of hell as a place that Satan was in charge of always seemed silly. As far as I can tell, the Bible tells that demonic beings will be sent to hell as tenants, not landlords. So the idea would be that Satan is hoping to drag as many people along with him as he can, out of spite.

(March 30, 2013 at 5:58 pm)Tonus Wrote: So the concept of hell as a place that Satan was in charge of always seemed silly. As far as I can tell, the Bible tells that demonic beings will be sent to hell as tenants, not landlords. So the idea would be that Satan is hoping to drag as many people along with him as he can, out of spite.

I do not believe in a firey hell and I'm a Southern Baptist. Your above statement is true, satan knows he has lost the war, all he cares about is the damage he can do until God says, The End.

Yet Satans list of destructive achievements is inferior to gods. Between the two of them, it's a wonder there are any of us left.