Quote:And when comes to material world existing, there is a significant amount of people, who believe only spiritual world exists and material world is just created via five senses (for example Harun Yahya (his nickname) believes that). So he would not believe the laptop is real.

But is that "I choose not to believe it is real." or "What I believe contradicts with this; therefore it does not make sense for it to exist. As a result, I believe it doesn't exists."

(April 4, 2013 at 4:08 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Precisely what I'm trying to determine. I can't, personally, choose that. I can't even -choose to believe- that it seems like I could........

And just because you personally cannot choose to believe, does not mean that the choice is not there for you to make.

(April 4, 2013 at 4:27 pm)Joel Wrote:

Quote:And when comes to material world existing, there is a significant amount of people, who believe only spiritual world exists and material world is just created via five senses (for example Harun Yahya (his nickname) believes that). So he would not believe the laptop is real.

But is that "I choose not to believe it is real." or "What I believe contradicts with this; therefore it does not make sense for it to exist. As a result, I believe it doesn't exists."

Well, you see. There is various theories and beliefs out there. I believe the soul tends to have preferences and those preferences are somewhat chosen, and there is a sense of "acquired" taste. This is the case for morality especially. You take that and say the brain does that, the mind does that. Whatever. The case in point, I think there is some freedom and will, in our preferences.

Then we also choose how sincere we want to be with the truth.

In logic, if A -> B and B-> C, it follows A -> C. Therefore, even though there is various steps between non-believing to believing, if there is choice within those steps, then we have a choice to believe.

For example, if we chose to be rational, and reject non-rational thought, then we are choosing beliefs.

If you can't praise yourself for choosing to being rational, I don't why people then make fun of people being foolish and talking non-sense or praise people that are being intelligent and rational.

Quite right, but I've already covered that posts and posts ago. Maybe you have an ability that I do not (like flight..lol, right mystic?). I'd just like to see it in action.

(April 4, 2013 at 4:21 pm)Mr Infidel Wrote: I believe people do it all the time, though perhaps not in the case of computer screens. For instance, a mother who claims that she had no idea her child was being molested by the father even though there were plenty of signs. The woman simply chose to not see what was really happening.

I think we have plenty of data about that particular scenario without falling back on some "she chose not to see" defense.....nor would I be comfortable saying that the mother "simply" anything-ed. I mean, clearly this is becoming a thread about whether or not we choose anything (and I was just looking for a single example of choosing a specific thing) and I don't think anyone is required to close that book.....

(April 4, 2013 at 4:23 pm)Joel Wrote: Purposely turning a blind eye to something.

Semantics. She chose to turn a blind eye.

If she had to choose to turn a blind eye, it would be difficult to argue that she didn't believe it was happening...wouldn't it. Whats she turning her eye to, something she doesn't believe in?

(April 4, 2013 at 4:33 pm)Mr Infidel Wrote:

(April 4, 2013 at 4:23 pm)Joel Wrote: Purposely turning a blind eye to something.

Semantics. She chose to turn a blind eye.

Is different to believing it did not happen.
Choosing to do is different to choosing to believe

(April 4, 2013 at 4:21 pm)Mr Infidel Wrote: I believe people do it all the time, though perhaps not in the case of computer screens. For instance, a mother who claims that she had no idea her child was being molested by the father even though there were plenty of signs. The woman simply chose to not see what was really happening.

That makes me wonder: is self-deception a matter of belief? Is it a case of two levels of belief, the conscious and the subconscious? When I was a believer, I defended my faith loyally and without any doubt in my conscious mind. But it's pretty clear that I wasn't convincing myself on some level, else I would not have drifted away from it and eventually abandoned those beliefs.

It's possible that I was choosing one set of beliefs, but the subconscious beliefs that I did not choose were the ones that were more compelling. Just like that mother might convince herself that nothing is going on, but she can't escape the crushing guilt that her subconscious is subjecting her to because the signs are too obvious to completely ignore.

(April 4, 2013 at 4:36 pm)Rhythm Wrote: If she had to choose to turn a blind eye, it would be difficult to argue that she didn't believe it was happening...wouldn't it.

I never stated she was not lying in her argument. Not everyone has the ethics to be honest when covering their own hide.

Woman knows something bad is happening to her child, but she does not interfere for fear of losing her husband. > Woman therefore chooses to ignore the problem to keep her husband. > The truth comes out by some means, say a teacher discovers it. > The woman, to hide her shame of not doing anything sooner, lies to the public that she had no idea it was going on.

Each one of the steps included a choice of either doing one thing or another. Every action we choose, every decision we make, has an opposite action or decision we could have chosen instead.

(April 4, 2013 at 4:40 pm)Mr Infidel Wrote:

(April 4, 2013 at 4:36 pm)Rhythm Wrote: If she had to choose to turn a blind eye, it would be difficult to argue that she didn't believe it was happening...wouldn't it.

I never stated she was not lying in her argument. Not everyone has the ethics to be honest when covering their own hide.

Woman knows something bad is happening to her child, but she does not interfere for fear of losing her husband. > Woman therefore chooses to ignore the problem to keep her husband. > The truth comes out by some means, say a teacher discovers it. > The woman, to hide her shame of not doing anything sooner, lies to the public that she had no idea it was going on.

I fail to see how that is relevant to choosing beliefs.
Help me out here?