(May 11, 2013 at 3:46 pm)Godschild Wrote: I'm not stuck, I'm the one who brought up the omnipresence of God.

Esquilax Wrote:So, your theology concerns a god that allows the embodiment of evil to tempt his creations, and waits so that he can get pissy after. Awesome.

Yes, God allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve, that's the only way Satan could approach to them, God's in control. He did not get mad, He did discipline them, you're just to blind to realize what actually happened.

GC Wrote:You must be real dense, how many times have this been explained, ok let's try one more time. The tree was there so Adam and Eve could show their love for God through obedience, the same thing parents desire from their children.

Esquilax Wrote:And yet, strangely, you were the one who was too dense to spot that I accounted for that possibility in my original post, in the hopes that there was some alternative answer. Interestingly, you seem happy to accept the most petty, manipulative, hucksterish answer as the motivation of your all good creator being.

I was not looking for an alternative answer, I've probably studied those passages many more times than you have ever read them. So who's the huckster here, I believe it to be you, the one trying to fool everyone that you have studied scripture and knows what scripture says.

Esquilax Wrote:You really are a mindless cheerleader in the most fascinating way, GC.

Mindless, then I have no description for one who sets below mindless, sorry bud you have no description.

GC Wrote:Tell me what would make your parents happy, your money or (not and/or) your respect for them.

Esquilax Wrote:You seem to be missing that respect and obedience are different things; you just seem happy with Adam and Eve just doing whatever god wants. That's not respect, it's the illusion of respect. It's what you and your kind seem to want; actual belief doesn't matter, sincerity doesn't matter, all that matters is that you follow the crowd, observe the traditions, donate at church, keep cheerleading, don't ever stop, god is good, no thinking...

Man you sure are one mixed up individual, respect and obedience go hand in hand. Respect: relation to something specified, God specified obedience and they disobeyed, being neither respectful nor obedient, showing selfishness over their love for God. The only illusion we have here is that of your sanity. We follow Christ with respect, actual belief, sincerity and love. Giving tithes, using our God given minds, respect, obedience and ect. shows our love for Him, God actually needs no cheerleaders, yet He chooses to work through people, for those who love Him it's an honor.

Esquilax Wrote:But that's not truthful, and that's not respect. Respect is earned, and a god who would indulge in entrapment and then bully his children throughout creation, even the ones who had nothing to do with the initial "crime" isn't even worth pity, much less respect.

God doesn't need to earn our respect for Him, it's something that we should give because He is creator and savior. You pay for your own sins against God, not the ones committed by Adam and Eve. In the end death will reveal the truth, that you can be certain of.

(May 12, 2013 at 2:43 am)Godschild Wrote: you're pitiiiiiful.

If that is the best you have, then you really do know nothing.

(May 12, 2013 at 4:00 am)Godschild Wrote: Yes, God allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve, that's the only way Satan could approach to them, God's in control.

So then you concede that god is ultimately responsible for the fall, and the whole charade is some kind of sick, twisted game/experiment?

So, does that mean you are aware of the fact that you are a Lemming following the rest of the Lemmings toward the edge of the cliff, or not?

Just asking.

(May 12, 2013 at 4:27 am)smax Wrote:

(May 12, 2013 at 4:00 am)Godschild Wrote: Yes, God allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve, that's the only way Satan could approach to them, God's in control.

So then you concede that god is ultimately responsible for the fall, and the whole charade is some kind of sick, twisted game/experiment?

So, does that mean you are aware of the fact that you are a Lemming following the rest of the Lemmings toward the edge of the cliff, or not?

Just asking.

No and I'm following Christ all the way to heaven, see you there or not.
Just asking.

(May 12, 2013 at 4:00 am)Godschild Wrote: Yes, God allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve, that's the only way Satan could approach to them, God's in control. He did not get mad, He did discipline them, you're just to blind to realize what actually happened.

He disciplined them for a scenario that he engineered with the sole purpose of giving them something to fail. And that's according to your logic, not mine; god made the tree in the garden specifically to give Adam and Eve the potential to do something wrong, and then he pretends it's some grand slight on him when it happens. Glad to know you're brainless enough to accept that as a good thing.

Oh, incidentally, where's the morality in me getting punished for that original sin, hmm?

GC Wrote:I was not looking for an alternative answer, I've probably studied those passages many more times than you have ever read them. So who's the huckster here, I believe it to be you, the one trying to fool everyone that you have studied scripture and knows what scripture says.

Hey moron? I wasn't demanding that you have an alternate answer, I was saying that I was hoping there would be an answer other than "god put the tree there to tempt his creations," because that's the most breathtakingly idiotic justification one could produce, assuming they want to paint god as benevolent. And yet you went there, presumably grinning like an idiot as though you're actually imparting some good news.

Quote:Mindless, then I have no description for one who sets below mindless, sorry bud you have no description.

Thank you for the sumptuous word salad, I'm sure that'll dissuade us all from thinking you mindless, GC.

GC Wrote:Man you sure are one mixed up individual, respect and obedience go hand in hand. Respect: relation to something specified, God specified obedience and they disobeyed, being neither respectful nor obedient, showing selfishness over their love for God. The only illusion we have here is that of your sanity. We follow Christ with respect, actual belief, sincerity and love. Giving tithes, using our God given minds, respect, obedience and ect. shows our love for Him, God actually needs no cheerleaders, yet He chooses to work through people, for those who love Him it's an honor.

So, the person asking for respect gets to dictate the terms of how that respect should manifest? Seriously? Are you fucking insane?

Quote:God doesn't need to earn our respect for Him, it's something that we should give because He is creator and savior. You pay for your own sins against God, not the ones committed by Adam and Eve. In the end death will reveal the truth, that you can be certain of.

Respect isn't automatically given just via creation. My dad created me, but that two fisted son of a bitch gets no respect because of his actions after my birth. Your ultimate creator, the cosmic genocidal bully who, in your theology, has a streak of pettiness miles wide, fares no better.

Saying that you're brainwashed and would respect him no matter what isn't a point in his favor, it's just a measure of the level of intimidation this mental virus can instill.

(May 12, 2013 at 1:41 am)Godschild Wrote: A child shows it's love for a parent through obedience, you do not get to choose that's the way it is. So if one does not accept their child's obedience as love what does that say about the parent. Actually I think you said the above for arguments sake.

For argument's sake? No, I truly believe that what you said was complete nonsense. Obedience may very well be an expression of love, but that is not what you claimed. You claimed parents want children to obey them in order to show love, which is sickening and selfish. The reason to want obedience from a child is to keep your child safe.

As a parent, it's not about what you get out of the relationship, it's about what the child gets.

(May 12, 2013 at 4:52 am)Godschild Wrote: No and I'm following Christ all the way to heaven, see you there or not.
Just asking.

The conditions laid out to the babies (Adam and Eve) were basically impossible to meet.

You concede that:

1. God created temptation

2. God didn't give Adam and Eve any knowledge of right from wrong

3. God placed a entity with superior intellect in their path. An entit that was known for his cunning (he talked a third of the angels into leaving heaven). An entity that had designs on thwarting god's plan and bringing about pain and suffering for man.

These concessions, on your part, can only lead to one of two conclusions:

Either god is incompetent and stupid or he intended for man to fall from grace.

Either way, he is ultimately responsbible for the fall.

There is no other reasonable conclusion. Well, at least no one has presented one as of yet.

(May 12, 2013 at 1:16 pm)smax Wrote:

(May 12, 2013 at 4:52 am)Godschild Wrote: No and I'm following Christ all the way to heaven, see you there or not.
Just asking.

The conditions laid out to the babies (Adam and Eve) were basically impossible to meet.

You concede that:

1. God created temptation

2. God didn't give Adam and Eve any knowledge of right from wrong

3. God placed a entity with superior intellect in their path. An entit that was known for his cunning (he talked a third of the angels into leaving heaven). An entity that had designs on thwarting god's plan and bringing about pain and suffering for man.

These concessions, on your part, can only lead to one of two conclusions:

Either god is incompetent and stupid or he intended for man to fall from grace.

Either way, he is ultimately responsbible for the fall.

There is no other reasonable conclusion. Well, at least no one has presented one as of yet.

The obvious conclusion is that the whole myth was conjured up by semi-nomadic inhabitants of a middle-eastern area somewhere between the Jordan and Mesopotamia.
The god was modeled on some king, the garden modeled on some great garden of the time... wasn't there such a thing in the list of the seven wonders of the ancient world?
The fall was modeled on the fall of someone who was made to dwell in that garden, perhaps...

(May 12, 2013 at 1:16 pm)smax Wrote:

(May 12, 2013 at 4:52 am)Godschild Wrote: No and I'm following Christ all the way to heaven, see you there or not.
Just asking.

The conditions laid out to the babies (Adam and Eve) were basically impossible to meet.

You concede that:

1. God created temptation

2. God didn't give Adam and Eve any knowledge of right from wrong

3. God placed a entity with superior intellect in their path. An entit that was known for his cunning (he talked a third of the angels into leaving heaven). An entity that had designs on thwarting god's plan and bringing about pain and suffering for man.

These concessions, on your part, can only lead to one of two conclusions:

Either god is incompetent and stupid or he intended for man to fall from grace.

Either way, he is ultimately responsbible for the fall.

There is no other reasonable conclusion. Well, at least no one has presented one as of yet.

I did not concede 1) because the scriptures tell us God does not tempt, you want me to agree with you so bad you will lie, sad bud, very sad.

I did not concede 2) God gave Adam and Eve knowledge of right and wrong, if He had not then he Could not have given them a rule, He is omniscient, you again tell a lie to make it seem I agree with you, sad.

I did not concede 3) God did allow Satan to come into the presence of Adam and Eve and He allowed the temptation, they chose to disobey, they did not have to. I've seen 4 year old children being tempted by older children to go against their parents rules and the 4 year old said no. I'm not suggesting a 4 year old was smarter than Adam and Eve, but he was able to resist the temptation of one supposedly smarter.
As for the angels just how smart is one to trade heaven for hell, not very in my opinion.

Being that I did not concede anything to you, then your conclusions are just as full of useless info as your comments are.

---

(May 12, 2013 at 5:16 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(May 12, 2013 at 1:16 pm)smax Wrote: The conditions laid out to the babies (Adam and Eve) were basically impossible to meet.

You concede that:

1. God created temptation

2. God didn't give Adam and Eve any knowledge of right from wrong

3. God placed a entity with superior intellect in their path. An entit that was known for his cunning (he talked a third of the angels into leaving heaven). An entity that had designs on thwarting god's plan and bringing about pain and suffering for man.

These concessions, on your part, can only lead to one of two conclusions:

Either god is incompetent and stupid or he intended for man to fall from grace.

Either way, he is ultimately responsbible for the fall.

There is no other reasonable conclusion. Well, at least no one has presented one as of yet.

The obvious conclusion is that the whole myth was conjured up by semi-nomadic inhabitants of a middle-eastern area somewhere between the Jordan and Mesopotamia.
The god was modeled on some king, the garden modeled on some great garden of the time... wasn't there such a thing in the list of the seven wonders of the ancient world?
The fall was modeled on the fall of someone who was made to dwell in that garden, perhaps...

Seems will need some proof of you argument.

A literal genesis doesn't entail an evil god, it simply entails a god that was not present at any moment of creation - that's laying aside that this moment is one that never occurred. Evil, meh, I don't think so-not yet, not at this point in the narrative, a bullshitter who really needed some friends and realized that he was going to have to stretch the truth about himself a bit to get them, sure.

GC, has the irony of demanding proof from another when you yourself are content with none ever dawned on you?