(May 20, 2013 at 11:39 am)Minimalist Wrote: I see your point, Divi Tiberio, I just think you are giving law waaaayyy too much credit to handle nuance.

Do you think the current system is fair? This really was never about whether judges would make good decisions about it; this was about giving young couples a chance to not automatically be charged with felonies because they violated an absolute rule.

Yes, some judges will make bad decisions, but then, you can't ever have a system which makes 100% fair ones. The idea of having a flexible law is so good judges can make good decisions.

You have to define "fair." The rules are posted - everyone knows what they mean...we even have a term - jail bait - to refer to underage girls.

I suspect what we have in this case is a person who never even gave the law a moment's thought when she turned 18....just kept doing what they were doing.

I do wonder what the younger girl's parents were doing in the run-up to the older one's 18th birthday?

Do understand though that in most cases judges are elected by the same bunch of redneck morons who elected the state legislators that passed these laws in the first place. Worse, many judges are merely lawyers who have been politically active in whichever party dominates the area in question. It is not a pretty picture.

I suppose a system could be devised which was not based on age. I shudder to think what it might be.

I think that the older one was probably aware of the law, though likely not the penalty. She probably also didn't think they would get caught (which also implies that the prosecution will have a hell of a time producing physical evidence. The younger girl probably won't want to testify against her girlfriend, either).

As for alternative determining factors than age...some countries do it by physical weight. The classical one for women, of course, is the first period (a la Game of Thrones). However, all three of these factors completely miss the mark on psychological readiness. 18 is supposed to be a catch-all age to avoid exploitation, but I've certainly known 18 year olds who weren't ready for sex.

(May 20, 2013 at 11:53 am)Minimalist Wrote: You have to define "fair." The rules are posted - everyone knows what they mean...we even have a term - jail bait - to refer to underage girls.

By fair, I mean that rules should be there to protect actual victims, rather than some sense of moral superiority. In possibly all cases, a 50 year old having a relationship with a 15 year old is probably not a case of the 15 year old being fully aware and capable of giving proper consent. In the case of two young people, at the same school, on the same sports team, and separated by only a few years, the case just isn't there.

This case surely demonstrates that the law shouldn't be black and white. Yes, technically the older girl broke the law, but the law was there to protect younger people from abuse, which is clearly not what the older girl was doing. Instead of protecting a 15 year old from an abusive partner, the system is wasting money prosecuting one half of what was apparently a good relationship with no ill intent.

Quote:I do wonder what the younger girl's parents were doing in the run-up to the older one's 18th birthday?

Well, according to the 18 year old's Uncle, they actually started dating around the time when she started dating the younger girl. The parents of the younger girl waited before prosecuting; whether that is because they didn't know about the relationship is still unknown. It doesn't paint them in a good light though.

Quote:Do understand though that in most cases judges are elected by the same bunch of redneck morons who elected the state legislators that passed these laws in the first place. Worse, many judges are merely lawyers who have been politically active in whichever party dominates the area in question. It is not a pretty picture.

I absolutely understand that, but I still don't think that's a good enough reason not to fix a badly written law. Judges come and go, judicial decisions can be overridden by appeals, etc.

Quote:I suppose a system could be devised which was not based on age. I shudder to think what it might be.

I just think this is one area which clearly cannot be decided by looking at one aspect like age. I have no problems with age being part of the process, but relationships are complex and we shouldn't ignore other factors that play an important role.

Sorry, but an 18-year-old shouldn't be having sex with a 14-year-old.

Depends on the circumstances, but overall I think I'd agree that there wouldn't be many cases where that wouldn't be seen as something that shouldn't happen. However, 15 is a much more understandable age. Perhaps it's because I come from a country where 16 is the legal age of consent, and to me at least, 15/16 year olds seem to have similar levels of maturity.

Quote:Yes, technically the older girl broke the law, but the law was there to protect younger people from abuse, which is clearly not what the older girl was doing. Instead of protecting a 15 year old from an abusive partner, the system is wasting money prosecuting one half of what was apparently a good relationship with no ill intent.

I agree with you....but I have no confidence in local redneck justice. What if one of the participants was black? That could be a hanging offense in Florida!

Quote: It doesn't paint them in a good light though.

Precisely. It is not as if they would not have had recourse through the family court system prior to the older ones 18th birthday.

Quote:but I still don't think that's a good enough reason not to fix a badly written law. Judges come and go, judicial decisions can be overridden by appeals, etc.

But consider what sort of jesus-freak morons in the Florida legislature would be doing the "fixing." That's what I mean by dangerous. In this case, an Appellate Court might be the best bet to vacate a conviction.

Quote:I have no problems with age being part of the process, but relationships are complex and we shouldn't ignore other factors that play an important role.

Good luck with that!

Quote:Since the passage of the Florida Amendment 2 in November 2008 by a vote of 61.9% in favor and 38.1% opposed, both same-sex marriage and civil union have been banned by Florida's state constitution.

Amendment 2 added Article I Section 27 of the Florida constitution, which says:[7]

Inasmuch as marriage is the legal union of only one man and one woman as husband and wife, no other legal union that is treated as marriage or the substantial equivalent thereof shall be valid or recognized."

Florida doesn't do "modern" very well.

(May 20, 2013 at 5:03 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Depends on the circumstances, but overall I think I'd agree that there wouldn't be many cases where that wouldn't be seen as something that shouldn't happen. However, 15 is a much more understandable age. Perhaps it's because I come from a country where 16 is the legal age of consent, and to me at least, 15/16 year olds seem to have similar levels of maturity.

it's different in every country........ and in the US it even varies by state....... if you were too argue that the length at which the two teens were born should be widened or that parents shouldn't be allowed to control who their minor has sex with (in this case someone who is older than them) that would be fine but you approached this argument as if 2 17 year olds were in a consentual sexual relationship and the minute/second one turned 18 the parents filed charges against the older one and you implied it was because they simply homosexual...therefore you are wrong.....

suggesting a court judgement should be based on love is insane........ legally a 17 year old can have sex with a 13 year old so maybe the age limit should be lengthened too 48 months??? i'll sign that petition.....but regardless these two committed a crime i fully support marijuana legalization but i am not about to stage a protest over someone who was arrested for smoking/dealing pot..... similarly i am not in favor of abolishing age limits concerning sex....changin those limits too 48 months is another matter.....

for the record i was in a relationship with a 24 year old when i was 16

(May 20, 2013 at 5:03 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Depends on the circumstances, but overall I think I'd agree that there wouldn't be many cases where that wouldn't be seen as something that shouldn't happen. However, 15 is a much more understandable age. Perhaps it's because I come from a country where 16 is the legal age of consent, and to me at least, 15/16 year olds seem to have similar levels of maturity.

It was a 14-year-old. Check the article, it says it was updated to correct the age.

(May 20, 2013 at 7:54 pm)cratehorus Wrote: it's different in every country........ and in the US it even varies by state....... if you were too argue that the length at which the two teens were born should be widened or that parents shouldn't be allowed to control who their minor has sex with (in this case someone who is older than them) that would be fine but you approached this argument as if 2 17 year olds were in a consentual sexual relationship and the minute/second one turned 18 the parents filed charges against the older one and you implied it was because they simply homosexual...therefore you are wrong.....

1) I didn't approach this as if it were 2 17 year olds at all. I challenge you to find any quote of mine which suggests that...
2) Neither did I approach it as if the parents filed charges against her once she turned 18. In fact, I think I made clear that the charges appeared several months after she turned 18.
3) Neither did I imply that this was all because they were homosexual. I said she was clearly being targeted because of her sexual orientation, due to statements by her mother, and the fact that she was in this relationship for a while. This wasn't just some random 18 year old having sexy with a 14 year old; the two were in a relationship and had been for some time.

On (2), the fact of the matter is, a parent could quite easily do this at any time. If a 17 year old dates a 16 year old, and the 17 year old turns 18, what is to stop the parents from filing charges of lewd behaviour against the 18 year old? The fact that there were in a relationship seems to become irrelevant to the law, which it shouldn't be.

Quote:suggesting a court judgement should be based on love is insane........

Erm, I never suggested that. I said there were multiple factors other than age that should be considered.

Quote:legally a 17 year old can have sex with a 13 year old so maybe the age limit should be lengthened too 48 months??? i'll sign that petition.....

Again, I fail to see what lengthening the age limit does to help. The problem is that an 18 year old is automatically treated like an adult, despite the fact that some 18 year olds are still in school, and could be in relationships with people a few years younger than them.

Quote:but regardless these two committed a crime

Right, and my argument is, it shouldn't be a crime.

Quote:i fully support marijuana legalization but i am not about to stage a protest over someone who was arrested for smoking/dealing pot..... similarly i am not in favor of abolishing age limits concerning sex....changin those limits too 48 months is another matter.....

I'm not staging a protest either. I'm saying laws like this need to change, because they are abused to target the wrong people. I'm not necessarily saying we should abolish age limits entirely; certainly a 50 year old should not date a 13 year old, for instance. However, when you are in your teenage years, things are different; teenagers will always date across school years, and it isn't fair to punish the older one because they are technically dating a minor.

(May 21, 2013 at 12:23 pm)John V Wrote: It was a 14-year-old. Check the article, it says it was updated to correct the age.

Thanks for the update. I note it also now says she was 17 when they started dating, which could be a 3 year age difference. I still think it's an acceptable relationship, given the circumstances. It should also be noted that doing an age difference based on year alone is silly. If the girl has only just turned 14, then yes, that would be a 4 year age gap. If she's turning 15 in a short while, the age gap is much closer to 3 years.