rjh4,

You are correct; independent contractors are not protected by title VII of the civil rights act and I could find nothing that points to the protection of independent contractors under state law, there are precedents relating to racial discrimination but not religious discrimination. This furthers the case for Dotard to lie to people if they ask the question. So I have a couple questions:

1. Should people have the right to ask about the religion of people who do work for them?

2. Should people avoid using non-christian labor?

Rhizo

1) No they shouldn't. Some employers don't accept statements about the person's race, age, or religion. That gives them no room to be discriminate against them.

2) No, as long as they don't use thier faith to justify a problem, then no.

People should just judge people by how they are instead of by thier personal merit instead of which group they belong to. Doesn't that define discrimination? lol

(December 8, 2009 at 5:20 pm)Rhizomorph13 Wrote: rjh4,

You are correct; independent contractors are not protected by title VII of the civil rights act and I could find nothing that points to the protection of independent contractors under state law, there are precedents relating to racial discrimination but not religious discrimination. This furthers the case for Dotard to lie to people if they ask the question. So I have a couple questions:

1. Should people have the right to ask about the religion of people who do work for them?

2. Should people avoid using non-christian labor?

Rhizo

Don't get me wrong. I understand Dotard's position. I further want to note that I think it is entirely possible for a person to lie about being an atheist and still give honest estimates for work (it is just inconsistent....although I personally would rather have a person be inconsistent this way than for a person to tell the truth about their position regarding God and then lie to me about the work needed).

Anyway...regarding the questions.

1. I guess my answer to this one would depend on the context. If one asks out of personal interest and for personal discussion and the person being asked wants to respond, I don't see a problem with that. On the other hand, if there is any motive at all for then discriminating depending on the answer, I think that is problematic.

2. I see no need to actively avoid non-Christian labor or actively seek Christian labor. As for me personally, I am fairly handy around the house so I don't call many people in for things. But I have in the past. I generally try to get those who will do a good job at a decent price. I have never asked about their religion, except maybe once because the person had a fish sign on the truck.

I actually had a guy come in an pour a patio and build a couple of sets of stairs from the patio to the house. I had a couple of minor issues with the work, one of which was an extremely flexible piece of wood he used on one of the steps. You felt like you were bouncing when you stepped on it. He told me to mark the pieces I thought were a problem and he would replace them. I did only to find that on the worst piece, he merely turned it over and nailed it back in. Later, I was visiting different churches in the area as I was searching for a new church. Who do I see one morning, this same guy. He was a deacon at the church (I did not know this when I hired him). While the church may have been just fine, the fact that this guy was there put me off from ever going back.

(December 8, 2009 at 5:20 pm)Rhizomorph13 Wrote: rjh4,

You are correct; independent contractors are not protected by title VII of the civil rights act and I could find nothing that points to the protection of independent contractors under state law, there are precedents relating to racial discrimination but not religious discrimination. This furthers the case for Dotard to lie to people if they ask the question. So I have a couple questions:

1. Should people have the right to ask about the religion of people who do work for them?

2. Should people avoid using non-christian labor?

Rhizo

I wasn't aware of that. Regardless, I think they should be and I think religion shouldn't play a part in hiring a contractor.

rjh4,

It seems we have similar ideas about this issue. Apparently you have changed your mind. Earlier in the thread you seemed to have no problem with someone asking such an inappropriate question.

E,

I was hoping to find some support of your statement but my hope was low because independent contractors are not employees according to the law and are therefore outside many of the laws that govern the employer-employee relationship. I think it is good in general because it allows for quick litigation regarding independant contractors and greases the wheels of commerce by eliminating much of the overhead related to employment. Independant contractors simply have to be careful to protect their interests during a deal.

Rhizo

I'm a sole proprietor. People call me. I troubleshoot their HVAC equipment, give a price for repairs and if accepted do the repairs.

So no, sadly it is not illegal for a potential customer to deny me the work based on my religious affiliation or the way I talk or the way I smell or the way I look or the color of my skin or the quality of my shoes or the way I part my hair or the video games I play or my sexual orientation or the cleanliness of my finger nails..........

(December 8, 2009 at 6:38 pm)Rhizomorph13 Wrote: rjh4,
Apparently you have changed your mind. Earlier in the thread you seemed to have no problem with someone asking such an inappropriate question.

Rhizo

I guess I have somewhat. In situations like the one being discussed (individuals having work done on their house, A/C, etc.), while I do not select/deselect based on religion, I know others might want to do this and I respect their desire to do this.

After thinking about this some last night, I decided that what I really have a problem with is when an individual calls someone for an estimate, gets the estimate, and only then asks the question. I do think this is inappropriate.

If one knows that they only want Christians (or atheists) to do the work, they should ask about it during the first phone contact (it should be the first thing asked about in such a case). That way, they are not wasting significant amounts of the person's time if they are not the "right" religion/anti-religion. If an individual fails to do this and asks that person to come and give an estimate, I do think it is inappropriate to ask any questions about religion for selection/deselection purposes because then the individual has unfairly wasted significant amounts of the person's time.

Better yet, if one only wants a Christian to do the work, it is not that difficult to find Christian businesses/individuals as many times this is put in their advertising in the yellow pages. Furthermore, in some areas, like mine, there is a "Christian" yellow pages called the "Shepherd's Guide" which only lists "Christian" businesses. These resources could be used by Christians for selection without wasting any of another's time. These resources could even be used by atheists to deselect without wasting any of another's time.

Christian yellow pages?! Wow, I've heard about that in other places and think it is a terrible idea because it is a way to segregate for no good reason. Christian dating sites make some sense because many people would rather date Chrisitians, but, what does religion have to do with getting some work done?

Rhizo

(December 9, 2009 at 10:24 am)Rhizomorph13 Wrote: Christian yellow pages?! Wow, I've heard about that in other places and think it is a terrible idea because it is a way to segregate for no good reason. Christian dating sites make some sense because many people would rather date Chrisitians, but, what does religion have to do with getting some work done?

Rhizo

Yeah. I personally think it is an advertising gimmick to try to get exclusive access to a certain group of people. I think a lot of things nowadays are labelled "Christian" for that very reason. I don't buy into it but I think a lot of people do.

WTF? Christian yellow pages? Religion has got nothing to do with competence. Things like that might just create an "us and them" scenario...what happened to we're all equal and love thy neighbour?