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RE: Science confirms the Bible?
June 6, 2013 at 8:30 am
(June 6, 2013 at 7:46 am)fr0d0 Wrote: The Christian God who is both metaphysical and who interacts with this reality. You've just heaped another claim onto your pile. How do you think that these physical manifistations should be proven? The bible is clear that they cannot be independently verifiable. indeed, Christianity would crumble to dust right now if you could substantiate this one. I think you could be on the brink of becoming very rich! Remember me won't you!
Well, if something interacts with reality, even if it withdraws to the realm of metaphysics afterwards it does so dripping with physics; things that happen in the real world tend to... happen in the real world. And we can test things that happen in the real world, regardless of the bible's claims to the ultra super secrecy of these events.
But oddly, we always find natural explanations for the things that happen; each and every miracle claim recedes under the gaze of science. If god directly intervenes with the world, then we'd have some evidence of spontaneous happenings devoid of cause... but we don't. Ever.
Now, if you're going to follow up your claim by saying that god works through natural processes in order to interact with the world, then you simply have no basis for claiming you can tell the difference between a god-caused event and a natural one. It would look the same either way, so how could you possibly tell?
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
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RE: Science confirms the Bible?
June 6, 2013 at 8:53 am
(June 5, 2013 at 1:26 am)k2490 Wrote: along the same vein I had a friend tell me the Bible is true because of all the fulfilled prophecies,that there were 500 witnesses to Jesus' resurrection. and "Why would Jesus die for a lie?"
I am surprised that anyone would use the "why would they give their lives, if it wasn't true?" argument. People have given their lives for all manner of causes. Use the words "martyr" today, and some people will think back to early Christians who died for their beliefs. Most people will think of Islamic fundamentalists, some of whom have given their lives for their beliefs in spectacular fashion over the past few decades. Why would they do so, if Islam was not the true religion?
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Science confirms the Bible?
June 6, 2013 at 8:59 am
(June 6, 2013 at 8:53 am)Tonus Wrote: I am surprised that anyone would use the "why would they give their lives, if it wasn't true?" argument. People have given their lives for all manner of causes. Use the words "martyr" today, and some people will think back to early Christians who died for their beliefs. Most people will think of Islamic fundamentalists, some of whom have given their lives for their beliefs in spectacular fashion over the past few decades. Why would they do so, if Islam was not the true religion? Just out of interest...would you die a martyr for your atheism?
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RE: Science confirms the Bible?
June 6, 2013 at 9:02 am
(June 6, 2013 at 8:59 am)ideologue08 Wrote: Just out of interest...would you die a martyr for your atheism?
You mean if someone put a gun to my head and demanded that I start believing in god?
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
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RE: Science confirms the Bible?
June 6, 2013 at 9:04 am
Who'd be fool enough to die for some bullshit like that - especially considering that the only person who might execute you for it is probably dumb enough to just take your word as a miracle when you say you've seen the light at the end of that barrel?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Science confirms the Bible?
June 6, 2013 at 9:04 am
(June 6, 2013 at 8:59 am)ideologue08 Wrote: Just out of interest...would you die a martyr for your atheism?
Why does that matter? The point being raised is that people do die for false beliefs, just by definition, because people have died for mutually exclusive systems of belief.
As to the question itself, no; martyrdom might have some special nobility for the religious, but the smart people find ways to retain their ideals while remaining alive to hold them and affect change on behalf of them.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
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RE: Science confirms the Bible?
June 6, 2013 at 9:05 am
(This post was last modified: June 6, 2013 at 9:10 am by ideologue08.)
(June 6, 2013 at 9:02 am)Tonus Wrote: You mean if someone put a gun to my head and demanded that I start believing in god? Yes. If someone told you to renounce your atheism or you'll be executed, would you die for your beliefs?
(June 6, 2013 at 9:04 am)Rhythm Wrote: Who'd be fool enough to die for some bullshit like thatl? Well, my grandfather was prepared to die for the country, people have died for their nation, why do you think it's bullshit for people to die for what they believe in? Some would call that cowardly and ultra-pacifist.
(June 6, 2013 at 9:04 am)Esquilax Wrote: but the smart people find ways to retain their ideals while remaining alive to hold them and affect change on behalf of them. You think it's smart to sell out on your beliefs? So if a Nazi in WW2 stripped you naked and threatened to end you, you'd sell out? Why do you hold your atheism in such low value? What if an army came and threatened to wipe out all atheists, imagine what would happen if not a single atheist was prepared to fight to the death for their beliefs?
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RE: Science confirms the Bible?
June 6, 2013 at 9:12 am
(June 6, 2013 at 9:05 am)ideologue08 Wrote: Yes. If someone told you to renounce your atheism or you'll be executed, would you die for your beliefs?
I don't know. It would probably depend on the circumstances. I cannot renounce atheism in the sense that I could have renounced a religion or deity-- not only is there no deity to turn away from, there is no penalty from that non-deity for doing so. Also, I would have to adopt a particular faith or belief on demand, and I'm not even sure if I could put on a good enough show to convince the person making the threat.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Science confirms the Bible?
June 6, 2013 at 9:13 am
(This post was last modified: June 6, 2013 at 9:15 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Quote:Well, my grandfather was prepared to die for the country, people have died for their nation, why do you think it's bullshit for people to die for what they believe in?
He was prepared was he? So I take it he didn't actually do any such thing? People have died for many nations - a large majority of which neither you or I are likely to consider "worth dying for". I think it's bullshit for people to die on behalf of ignorance - and it's not my problem if their beliefs amount to ignorance.
Quote:Some would call that cowardly and ultra-pacifist.
Yeah...that's me...lol, the cowardly pacifist with a blue cord on his shoulder, crossed rifles on his chest, and cat eyes on the back of his head. Go fuck yourself.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Science confirms the Bible?
June 6, 2013 at 9:20 am
(June 6, 2013 at 9:12 am)Tonus Wrote: Also, I would have to adopt a particular faith or belief on demand, and I'm not even sure if I could put on a good enough show to convince the person making the threat. Alright fair enough. I don't think there's anything wrong with not being prepared to die for it, who knows what your reaction would be, people can do strange things in those kind of situations.
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