(June 6, 2013 at 9:50 am)Esquilax Wrote: I just don't think there's anything noble about dying. If you can, stay alive. If someone offers you the choice to live, take it; dead people can't affect change. And there's a difference between being murdered for your beliefs and dying for them; the latter puts you specifically in harm's way, which I believe should be avoided over things like ideals, for the reasons detailed above.

Kudos for your honesty.

(June 6, 2013 at 9:54 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(June 6, 2013 at 9:27 am)fr0d0 Wrote: If Gods intention is for his existence to be unknowable, independently of belief, as is established in the bible, you won't be able to distinguish his actions with science.

If his intention is for his existence to be unknowable, then how do you know about him?
How does anyone know about him?
Why do different groups of people know about him in different ways, and each claims that their way is one true way?

1. You missed "independently of belief". I believe that God is intimately knowable.
2. Well that's for everyone to work out isn't it.

(June 6, 2013 at 9:46 am)ideologue08 Wrote: Alright, apologies, I think I'm conflating the two. So, in your opinion, a gun to the head scenario people should always choose life. But in a fighting to the death situation, such as defending your beliefs/family/property/country etc. surely you can't think that's not worthwhile?

I think that there's a practical side to it that can make it worthwhile. I also think that most such choices are driven by emotion, which isn't always rational. In that case, what is worthwhile is entirely up to the individual.

The person who gives up his life in order to do something that saves many other lives would consider it a worthwhile sacrifice, and it's difficult to argue otherwise. The person who does so for an ideal may feel the same way, but whether we agree depends on what he did and what the ideal was. The soldiers on opposite sides of a battle may believe strongly in their cause and be ready to die for their country, but without context we would hesitate to claim that they both fight (and possibly die) for something worthwhile.

(June 6, 2013 at 9:46 am)ideologue08 Wrote: Like what? What would be worth it in your opinion? I'm just asking for people's opinions, I don't know why you're getting so worked up tbh, just relax.

You don't know why, eh? I doubt that. I doubt very much that you aren't well aware that we hear the old "die for their beliefs" canard regularly - I doubt very much that you managed to make the attempt to paint this act in a positive light, and it's negation in a negative light unintentionally, doubt very much that you didn't realize how shifty and fucking dishonest your responses have been from that point forward.

Let's consider two directly related scenarios. I would not die for your god any more readily than I would die for my atheism. It would be foolish to do either. There is only loss, and it's avoidable. I -would- die to ensure the continuity of my country - which demands that you be afforded the right to believe in your god, and me the right to call bullshit on the same. You see, I'm not going to be laying down my life on account of djinn either way, but I would lay down my life to defend others from the tyranny and ignorance of those so inclined-because that is a matter of earthly and demonstrable concern with a hefty amount of solid justification in it's favor.

I'll die - because djinn
I'll die - because of my commitment to defend my fellow man from tyranny

Perhaps the difference in content is noticeable?

At no point in any of this will I be rushing a machine gun position to martyr myself. If all hope is lost and death is the only option - I would refuse to participate in your hellish little shell game of personal confessions. Just shoot me in my damned head - but you won't be getting a word out of me either way.

I personally am quite happy for islamists to get themselves killed for no reason other than some cock in a frock telling them to.

Lowers the global population and all that.

(June 6, 2013 at 10:03 am)Tonus Wrote: I think that there's a practical side to it that can make it worthwhile. I also think that most such choices are driven by emotion, which isn't always rational. In that case, what is worthwhile is entirely up to the individual.

The person who gives up his life in order to do something that saves many other lives would consider it a worthwhile sacrifice, and it's difficult to argue otherwise. The person who does so for an ideal may feel the same way, but whether we agree depends on what he did and what the ideal was. The soldiers on opposite sides of a battle may believe strongly in their cause and be ready to die for their country, but without context we would hesitate to claim that they both fight (and possibly die) for something worthwhile.

That's a very sensible viewpoint yeah.

(June 6, 2013 at 10:05 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: I personally am quite happy for islamists to get themselves killed for no reason other than some cock in a frock telling them to.

Lowers the global population and all that.

The trouble is... they tend to take others with them... and that's not cool.

(June 6, 2013 at 10:04 am)Rhythm Wrote: You don't know why, eh? I doubt that. I doubt very much that you aren't well aware that we hear the old "die for their beliefs" canard regularly - I doubt very much that you managed to make the attempt to paint this act in a positive light, and it's negation in a negative light unintentionally, doubt very much that you didn't realize how shifty and fucking dishonest your responses have been from that point forward.

I would refuse to participate in your hellish little shell game of personal confessions.

You need to calm down. I think you definitely have something to contribute, but your responses right now are a little unhinged.

I'm responding to your obvious goading in an appropriate way Ideo. There's no sense in stirring up a hornets nest then moaning abut all the buzz afterwards.

You wouldn't call "believe in god or die" a hellish shell game of personal confessions? What would you call that (I could suggest a few other things)?

(June 6, 2013 at 10:09 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(June 6, 2013 at 10:05 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: I personally am quite happy for islamists to get themselves killed for no reason other than some cock in a frock telling them to.

Lowers the global population and all that.

The trouble is... they tend to take others with them... and that's not cool.

All for 'the greater good' and all that. Perhaps the planetary states should consider repatriating "refugees" and close the borders. Islamists seem to delight in fighting each other. When the fighting stops we can shoot the last man/woman standing?

Great for global warming and climate change and all that