I actually agree with violet. Adults are just as easy of manipulation as teenagers. However, to state that anyone can be easily manipulated is not a valid incentive to take away their consent. Some, not all, but some teenagers are perfectly capable of understanding and consenting to sex. It is plainly that simple.

(June 7, 2013 at 4:00 am)NoraBrimstone Wrote: Adults are nowhere near as easy to manipulate as little girls.

Religion, other scams, some more scams, cons... the funny thing, is that most of these are aimed at adults (because they have money). And they make money through scamming... adults.

If Adults are nowhere near as easy to manipulate as little girls: little girls must obey your every slight suggestion to the letter. You don't even have to ask please: eeeezay as 123.

Quote:You'll actually have a clue what you're talking about in a few years.

Is the Fire Nation going to attack? hock:

Quote:For now you should just shut your ignorant little mouth so you have less to cringe about when you're older.

Interestingly, regret isn't something that I'm too concerned with. There is much I regret... and also much I realize that I would have done no differently today.

Also interestingly... I haven't stooped to telling you to shut up. Oh, sorry... I meant 'implying strongly' that you should shut up. Wouldn't want to fail to insult you properly, let's stop just short of that, and call it politeness. Let's also make sure that we don't respond to any arguments made against our beliefs, and distract both them and ourselves from the topic with condescending remarks made because we think so much of ourselves.

We truly are... impressive. <Something about goats so that you know it's Violet writing this fanciful shite>

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(June 7, 2013 at 4:08 am)Maelstrom Wrote: I actually agree with violet. Adults are just as easy of manipulation as teenagers. However, to state that anyone can be easily manipulated is not a valid incentive to take away their consent. Some, not all, but some teenagers are perfectly capable of understanding and consenting to sex. It is plainly that simple.

Some, but not all, adults are perfectly capable of understanding and consenting to sex

My 34 year old sister is pregnant again... I think she missed a memo somewhere. Hopefully she won't have another FAS baby. I'm personally hoping for another niece like Nicole, but do I really need another one?

(June 7, 2013 at 2:51 am)NoraBrimstone Wrote: You seem very young. It's difficult for you to understand that to a 25 year old, a 13 or 14 year old is basically a baby. 11-14 year old girls are particularly easy to manipulate and exploit for sexual purposes. Don't get me wrong, when I was a kid your age I totally would have agreed with you, now I see it differently because I can see children as an adult sees them. It's not the same.

Irrelevant conjecture.

Quote: It's not about what the little girl thinks she wants that's the problem, it's the intentions of a man who wants to fuck a child.

The intentions of the man is that he is has *gasp* a desire to act upon his sex drive. And so he did. He enjoyed it. His partner enjoyed it, too. Gave her consent even (imagine that.) Still no problem.

Wondering if you're going to recite the same statement yet again - or - give me another "you're too young to understand." Maybe you'll surprise me and tell me why the age gap is relevant in two individuals ability to engage in a relationship or even to just engage in sex.

Aractus

My argument is simple;

1. Joseph was an adult and Maria barely a teenager, they were married, it is said that Jesus had brothers and sisters, so they had intercourse. So fad I haven't heard any churches combine today's laws with what is being said in the Bible, example; ''Joseph was older than Maria, but now that's a no-no, times change and we too must adapt.'' But it is overlooked, people use 2000 year old laws and rules to live in today's world, strange...

2. I started this topic because I read that Aisha from the Koran was....only.....9...when the Prophet Muhammad married her. Intercourse? I'm not sure, but getting married to a little girl is still pretty fuckin' weird to me. I read somewhere it might have been to save her from the clutches of other dangerous sexual predators, but really ? Was that the ONLY way you could save a little kid from being raped ?

3. The fact that these two points are overlooked is strange to me, and my guess is if the church still had the authority like it had a long time ago? Grown men would still be marrying and bedding little kids, all in the name of...Whom ever you believe in.

Furthermore;
Congratulations on leaving the Catholic Church 500 years ago, however I guess you still read from the same book as the Catholic and Christian Church's do. The fact that you interpret the book differently, the fact that 2 different religions read from the same bloody book and have the same bloody commandments is a little bit proof to me that: Religion is man made.

If it wasn't for people with a good sense of logic and reason [secular], my guess is it would've still been oke by Religion (like I said before) for churches to let grown men in their 30's and 40's wed & bed girls under 16. Nasty. It's a shame that religion is run by far too many complete and utter [perverse] morons. But hey, you're a theist I presume, big man in the sky works in mysterious ways huh ?

Violet,

I think it is hard to argue that overall little girls (or for that matter little boys) are not more trusting on average than are adults of either sex. The law takes the view that you have to of a certain age to be eligible for sex. Whilst I would agree that there are 13 year old girls who could pass for 20 and 13 year old girls that look exactly what they are if not younger the societal rule is that there is no harm in all of them waiting for their first sexual experience. There do appear to be good medical reasons for doing so.

There are no guarantees that age brings wisdom but in an imperfect world its about the best we can come up with.

The scope for abuse of children by adults is seen as being higher than for other consenting adults. A differentiation should be made between sub-adults of similar age experiencing sexual exploration together and an adult / child sexual relationship.

In general and idealized terms I tend to look for equality in relationships. I am a 48 year old man that has been married for a very long time and has a daughter aged 11. She, in my opinion is not ready for a sexual relationship with an adult. She probably has played games like "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" in the equivalent of behind the bike sheds and has probably started to explore her own body but these are a far cry from a full on sexual relationship.

At the same time if I were ever to have an affair (unlikely after 29 years) it would almost certainly be with someone close to my own age. A 25 year old may be considered an adult to society but not to me. I grant that this wouldn't be paedophilia in the traditional sense, nor that I would necessarily be able to abuse the relationship but it would, to me, represent something of a character flaw that I would want such a relationship other than due to pleasing appearance.

That character flaw would have to be much magnified in my opinion where we are talking about a significant age difference and one party is sub-adult (say 15 or younger). It is also worth bearing in mind that if the attraction of the older party is purely for the youth of the other there is little possibility in that turning out to be a long term relationship.

Adults that repeatedly prey on sub-adults for their own sexual gratification are not ones I would wish on any child.

It is with that in mind that, imperfect as the law is, I am happy its there.

Wow I was not expecting my implication that pedophilia is gross to go so far.

Let me take a sec to address the author of the thread. I don't really have anything to add to the Christianity part besides That is crazy! As for the Aisha part, she was 6 or 7(people disagreed) and was 9 when the marriage was consummated. It is Crazy.

I think Max-Greece and Nora made a lot of great points. When I was 13, a 25 year old man was just that a MAN. I was a kid. I didn't want to date a man. I wanted to date the cute boy in my class. I think Most people would want that for their kids to date someone of there own maturity level. (Maturity of mind, body) There is NOWAY a 13 year old girl is as physically mature as a 25 year old girl. Now mental maturity happens at different rates. I considered myself very mature at 13 I had a lot of responsibilities, but now I know just how much I have changes in all the years. I do not think that any 13 year old child is ready for a relationship with an adult. While there might be some 13 year old that are ready to explore their bodies, then they should do so with someone at the same level. Not someone who has the mental, physical, and emotional experience of a grown adult. As we grow up, we get better bull'o'meters and become harder to manipulate. We can tell the difference between healthy attention, someone who wants to love us in a healthy way and someone who doesn't. As we mature we also see the differences in people of different ages and maturity levels. No a 13 year old girl is not a baby, but she is in no way an adult. Adults should be able to see the difference in a baby and teen and someone who is a dateable candidate.
At that age our parents should be there to guide us, when we are unable to tell a dateable person from someone who isn't. It is sad that her's weren't. It is even more sad to think they encouraged it.

(June 7, 2013 at 6:22 am)max-greece Wrote: Violet,

I think it is hard to argue that overall little girls (or for that matter little boys) are not more trusting on average than are adults of either sex. The law takes the view that you have to of a certain age to be eligible for sex. Whilst I would agree that there are 13 year old girls who could pass for 20 and 13 year old girls that look exactly what they are if not younger the societal rule is that there is no harm in all of them waiting for their first sexual experience. There do appear to be good medical reasons for doing so.

I think it's easy to argue that overall young teenagers and children are not more trusting on average than adults: humanity is a fairly trusting species... such to the point where paranoia, distrust, and suspiciousness as a basis is considered a mental disorder (PPD). Typically, this latter state only begins to happen as trust is abused in a person (oft: repeatedly).

I've not the slightest concern whether a 13 year old passes for a 20 year old or not... should it matter?

Quote:There are no guarantees that age brings wisdom but in an imperfect world its about the best we can come up with.

None at all (and age often brings knowledge, which is inherently unwise, but that's an aside that's also not relevant)... and I came up with a better system back when I was 14. But guess what: it's not as economical as having your people come in batches like they're eggs! So that'll never happen.

Infact, there are a *large number* of 'better' ways to do it than to take an irrelevant arbitration that assumes for a median societal expectation (that would be: age lines). Good stuff, right?

Quote:The scope for abuse of children by adults is seen as being higher than for other consenting adults. A differentiation should be made between sub-adults of similar age experiencing sexual exploration together and an adult / child sexual relationship.

That's an assumption that some societies make, and they make it off of an emotional reason.

Why should there be a differentiation here? Is there a particular difference between these two? Is that somehow particularly different from two adults 'experiencing sexual exploration together'?

Quote:In general and idealized terms I tend to look for equality in relationships. I am a 48 year old man that has been married for a very long time and has a daughter aged 11. She, in my opinion is not ready for a sexual relationship with an adult. She probably has played games like "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" in the equivalent of behind the bike sheds and has probably started to explore her own body but these are a far cry from a full on sexual relationship.

On the other hand... I tend to look for fairness in relationships (equality being inherently unfair unless both parties are identical, but that's an aside). If the expectations and desires of a 48 year old and an 11 year old are both being met, and nobody is being abused (not the 48 year old, not the 11 year old): this is a fair arrangement.

What's really important here is not whether she's ready to have sex with someone (their being an adult: irrelevant)... it's if she thinks she's ready to have sex with someone. That is: if she's a horny lass, and wants for more than her own touch... she might have sex.

Masturbation and having sex are actually quite similar... if you're doing one, and you're doing it with sex on your mind: you'd probably do the other if had you the chance. If, of course.

Quote:At the same time if I were ever to have an affair (unlikely after 29 years) it would almost certainly be with someone close to my own age. A 25 year old may be considered an adult to society but not to me. I grant that this wouldn't be paedophilia in the traditional sense, nor that I would necessarily be able to abuse the relationship but it would, to me, represent something of a character flaw that I would want such a relationship other than due to pleasing appearance.

I look at a 25-year gap and I think 'that's fine' as long as both parties can effectively communicate their desires.

Quote:That character flaw would have to be much magnified in my opinion where we are talking about a significant age difference and one party is sub-adult (say 15 or younger). It is also worth bearing in mind that if the attraction of the older party is purely for the youth of the other there is little possibility in that turning out to be a long term relationship.

In your opinion... I look at it differently. It is also worth bearing in mind that if the attraction of the younger party is purely for the oldness of the other there is little possibility in that turning out to be a long term relationship... but then, that probably wasn't what either of them were going for from the get-go.

Quote:Adults that repeatedly prey on sub-adults for their own sexual gratification are not ones I would wish on any child.

'Repeatedly prey on'... I love it: you're so set in your understanding of a thing's wrongness... that you cannot even phrase it as if it is not wrong. As long as the adult (or nonadult!) is not abusive, and the nonadult wants it: what does it matter that the adult's primary reason for it is sexual gratification? Do not MOST PEOPLE of ALL AGES have sex primarily because 'it feels good'?

Don't act like there aren't other reasons for sex, though... and adults having sex with children are often close to those children, thus feeling a more intimate connection with them.

Quote:It is with that in mind that, imperfect as the law is, I am happy its there.

If you did away with law *entirely*... society would still enforce many things. Infact, the only way to have this go on past the 'my heart tells me this is wrong' sort of people is to HAVE law willing to allow it on the basis that there's nothing wrong with it except that which is in another's heart.

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(June 7, 2013 at 9:55 am)Savannahw Wrote: Wow I was not expecting my implication that pedophilia is gross to go so far.

Let me take a sec to address the author of the thread. I don't really have anything to add to the Christianity part besides That is crazy! As for the Aisha part, she was 6 or 7(people disagreed) and was 9 when the marriage was consummated. It is Crazy.

At least 12 by the marriage part. Oh well.

Quote:I think Max-Greece and Nora made a lot of great points.

Wonder what those great points are... I've not seen one yet. Maybe you can illustrate these for me?

Quote:When I was 13, a 25 year old man was just that a MAN. I was a kid. I didn't want to date a man. I wanted to date the cute boy in my class.

And you were just that: 'a girl'. That's what you wanted... you know what I wanted at 13? Doesn't matter. There are young women who wish to date older men, this is apart from that which either you, or I, want(ed).

Quote:I think Most people would want that for their kids to date someone of there own maturity level. (Maturity of mind, body)

I think that when we base things off of what most people want for their kids... homosexuals really lose out. The young party really loses out, regardless... since it's not what they want, but what their parents want. Sucks for them.

Quote:There is NOWAY a 13 year old girl is as physically mature as a 25 year old girl.

Cloning, stunted growth, a couple of disorders... hey: there are ways it might happen. Not common, but I find that it's an irrelevant point anyway.

Quote:Now mental maturity happens at different rates. I considered myself very mature at 13 I had a lot of responsibilities, but now I know just how much I have changes in all the years.

Funny, I have basically the same responsibilities as when I was 13, just with one more caveat: I have to pay rent. I know that I've changed over the years... but the longer I live, the more I seem to have stayed the same.

Quote:I do not think that any 13 year old child is ready for a relationship with an adult. While there might be some 13 year old that are ready to explore their bodies, then they should do so with someone at the same level. Not someone who has the mental, physical, and emotional experience of a grown adult.

I do think that some 13 year old persons are ready for a relationship with an adult. Infact, I believe MANY of them are quite ready for it. What of it?

More like... 'while there might be some 5 year olds that are ready to explore their bodies'... seriously, if they're not masturbating until they're 13: their growth is stunted. Hard.

You know what newbies are at sex? Terrible. Honestly, I would rather someone's first time having sex be with someone fantastic at it. Too many people have sex once and hate it, and then carry all sorts of ridiculous views about sex with them for years into their adulthood. And who, I wonder, is more likely to be better at sex? Why, someone who's had a good deal of sex before, and whose previous partners we might ask to know if they're the good stuff or not. That's usually an adult.

Why? What's your reasoning against people having a good time?

Quote:As we grow up, we get better bull'o'meters and become harder to manipulate. We can tell the difference between healthy attention, someone who wants to love us in a healthy way and someone who doesn't. As we mature we also see the differences in people of different ages and maturity levels.

That's an interesting assertion... please observe: scams are aimed primarily at adults. They're successful enough that they continue to be attempted: a lot of them. Again, if this is 'getting better bull'o'meters and becoming harder to manipulate': children must be easy as shit. Wonder why there aren't more scams for them. Money's great and all... but think of what you could accomplish with kids!

If adults can inherently tell the difference between 'healthy attention by someone who wants to love them in a healthy way' and not: what's with all of those domestic abuse cases, yo?

We see differences in people regardless of how we've matured. I could tell you why, but right now I'm just hoping you're not as stupid as your grammar makes me believe (which is illustrative of my point, of course).

Quote:No a 13 year old girl is not a baby, but she is in no way an adult. Adults should be able to see the difference in a baby and teen and someone who is a dateable candidate.

Yeah, they should be able to see that. Apparently they don't, though. Why would we be having this 'discussion' with you if we thought you did?

Quote:At that age our parents should be there to guide us, when we are unable to tell a dateable person from someone who isn't. It is sad that her's weren't. It is even more sad to think they encouraged it.

Should be that they guide their children... but usually they just end up getting in the way and sticking them on the rails. Good parents are hard to find.

'A datable person' is subjectively decided (and clearly, they are able to tell one from not, since they go for it). It is sad that you pity her for happiness. It is even more saddening to think that you would go against your own argument (parents are there to guide their children as to whom is and is not datable) because you disagree with a parental decision.

Violet,

We are simply never going to agree on this. Society regards paedophilia as wrong - you don't. I agree with society and think you are glossing over the potential for lasting damage to children who are not informed enough on the social aspects to give proper informed consent.

BTW: I used "prey on" deliberately. Serial child rapists (where the child is fooled into giving consent) are doing exactly that.

I am interested however in what you might regard as unacceptable. How about a 45 year old man with a 6 year old boy? Do you think the boy can give his consent? Is it better,worse, or the same thing if its a 6 year old girl? Are there circumstances where you think it might be acceptable?

Max, I totally and completely agree with everything you just said. I was trying to come back from the sock that violet thinks a 13 year old has the same physical maturity as an adult. That is just...blind. I feel like she is just trolling now. I think she is just looking to argue and whatnot instead of actually converse about the subject.

Just to add as I forgot to comment on this:

" it's if she thinks she's ready to have sex with someone."

Or, if she can be persuaded to think that she is ready, which is where the whole scope of abuse and potential for it comes in.