(June 19, 2013 at 4:26 pm)Faith No More Wrote:

(June 19, 2013 at 4:19 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Faith gives me the potential to get more out of life than life without it.

I'd say that's less a statement about the strength of faith and more about your failings of dealing with existential questions.

I find the strength of the reasoning is precisely what supports the view. I think faith isn't better for being stronger. The balance between faith and doubt are important.

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(June 19, 2013 at 4:36 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: That's just it. Christians often think that we atheists don't live happy, moral lives without belief in a higher power. That's why so many of them claim that we're all unhappy and if we do happen to have morals, they came from God.

Hmm. I think atheists can be happy. I can't reason how an atheist can't see the gains of a just reality. And I do think that's a reality an atheist must face. Reality sans God is unjust.

All humans have an ethical sense in my opinion. It's what supports the idea that justice is desirable.

Because belief systems that include a higher power -- with which they can assert total control over many cognitive, emotional, and physical processes -- are more virulent than those that do not have such a thing.

(June 19, 2013 at 4:39 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(June 19, 2013 at 4:26 pm)Faith No More Wrote: I'd say that's less a statement about the strength of faith and more about your failings of dealing with existential questions.

I find the strength of the reasoning is precisely what supports the view. I think faith isn't better for being stronger. The balance between faith and doubt are important.

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(June 19, 2013 at 4:36 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote: That's just it. Christians often think that we atheists don't live happy, moral lives without belief in a higher power. That's why so many of them claim that we're all unhappy and if we do happen to have morals, they came from God.

Hmm. I think atheists can be happy. I can't reason how an atheist can't see the gains of a just reality. And I do think that's a reality an atheist must face. Reality sans God is unjust.

All humans have an ethical sense in my opinion. It's what supports the idea that justice is desirable.

Reality is unjust. There are starving kids in Africa at the same time there are billionaires with private jets. With or without God, that is not just.

(June 19, 2013 at 4:39 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Hmm. I think atheists can be happy. I can't reason how an atheist can't see the gains of a just reality. And I do think that's a reality an atheist must face. Reality sans God is unjust.

Futile beat me to it. If you're saying that there is no divine punishment for being an asshole here on earth, then yes, reality is unjust. Like the saying goes, life isn't fair.

(June 19, 2013 at 4:39 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Hmm. I think atheists can be happy. I can't reason how an atheist can't see the gains of a just reality. And I do think that's a reality an atheist must face. Reality sans God is unjust.

Putting aside the argument that nothing about the God of the Bible is anything even closely resembling just, the pros and cons of a just reality are beside the point. What's important is whether or not there actually exists an objective source of justice. This is, frankly, impossible. God's opinions are his opinions. It doesn't matter how powerful he is or how much he knows, they are still (allegedly) his opinions and I disagree with most of them.

Reality, without God is unjust. Reality with your God is a sort of justice which is arbitrary, punitive, and designed to satisfy the lawmaker, first and foremost. God made laws so he could control people. No consideration was made for the people themselves, and why would there be? This is a religion which places no value on human life. Even the evocation to not kill is to be followed not because there is anything inherently wrong with killing someone else, but because God said not to. Well, except for all those times he said the complete opposite.

(June 19, 2013 at 4:36 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote:

(June 19, 2013 at 3:01 pm)Maelstrom Wrote: Considering that people are perfectly capable of living happy, moral lives without a belief in a higher power

That's just it. Christians often think that we atheists don't live happy, moral lives without belief in a higher power. That's why so many of them claim that we're all unhappy and if we do happen to have morals, they came from God.

I do not say nonbelievers can't live a happy life, what I say is they better because what's to come will be anything but happy. Christians shouldn't brag they live totally happy lives, because they don't, it just can't be we are asked by Christ to sacrifice and I know I've not always been happy with what I've had to give up, yet I know it was for the good of others and good for my relationship with Christ. Being human doesn't always allow us to be happy with everything, Christian or not.
As far as a moral life goes Christians have a tougher standard to live by than nonbelievers our morals are who God is, nonbelievers get to choose theirs as long as they're not outside the laws where they live.
We (Christians) live for an eternal future, nonbelievers live for the here and now, so our lives are very much different and we know without God the eternal future is not possible. For the nonbeliever whether there is a God or not they live to be worm food, no wonder we Christians choose to believe in Christ our savior.

(June 19, 2013 at 6:21 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote:

(June 19, 2013 at 4:39 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Hmm. I think atheists can be happy. I can't reason how an atheist can't see the gains of a just reality. And I do think that's a reality an atheist must face. Reality sans God is unjust.

Futile beat me to it. If you're saying that there is no divine punishment for being an asshole here on earth, then yes, reality is unjust. Like the saying goes, life isn't fair.

I agree with futile. I don't agree with you though. Reality is unjust without the posthumous judge that I believe in.


@ Ryan
Sorry mate what you're saying doesn't address my faith so I cannot answer it. As always, you need to prove your wild claims not just put them out there to stink the place out.

(June 19, 2013 at 3:01 pm)Maelstrom Wrote: Considering that people are perfectly capable of living happy, moral lives without a belief in a higher power, I would like to hear logical answers from theists as to precisely why belief in a higher power is required in this world. It is a question I have never seen adequately answered.

I believe in God because His existence is a reality. I reject the pragmatic assertion that Christians should only believe in God because it makes their lives better (or that we should reject that belief because it doesn’t make our lives better), we should believe in God because we value truth.

(June 19, 2013 at 6:45 pm)Godschild Wrote: We (Christians) live for an eternal future, nonbelievers live for the here and now, so our lives are very much different and we know without God the eternal future is not possible. For the nonbeliever whether there is a God or not they live to be worm food, no wonder we Christians choose to believe in Christ our savior.

In other words, you fear death to the point where convincing yourself that death isn't final is vital to maintaining your happiness. Also, it means that you're in this for your own benefit, not for God's, which is the entire point of this religion, meaning that you (Christians) are selfish opportunists, and last I remember, your god doesn't look kindly upon that at all.

(June 19, 2013 at 6:50 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Sorry mate what you're saying doesn't address my faith so I cannot answer it. As always, you need to prove your wild claims not just put them out there to stink the place out.

Which claims do you need me to clarify?

(June 19, 2013 at 7:13 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: We should believe in God because we value truth.

You cannot value truth if you confuse it with fiction as often as you do.

Truth has nothing to do with it, either. You're supposed to believe in God because God says so. Whether or not it is true is obviously not relevant.

Quote:I do not say nonbelievers can't live a happy life, what I say is they better because what's to come will be anything but happy.

Of course, G-C, that assumes that all of your happy horseshit is true. The odds against it being true are astronomical.