The way I see it, if a person is well and truly gay, all ex-gay ministries will do is cause him/her to get an unwarranted sense of shame over something not under their control.

If, however, they're bisexual, well, there's no evidence that even in this case that it actually eliminates same-sex attraction. At best, they may stop having gay sex.

And, really, if they don't want to be gay, the truth is, it's not their call. There may not be a single "Gay gene," but, as complicated as the genetics behind sexuality is, there's still a consensus that you can't change it with therapy.

(June 20, 2013 at 11:41 pm)Savannahw Wrote: That doesn't require gay therapy. I think you are looking for marriage consuling.

How do you know what it does or does not require? Every situation is unique, and should be left up to the individual to decide what steps he should or should not take. Taking options like this off of the table forces people to make societally specific decisions.

---

(June 20, 2013 at 11:47 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: The way I see it, if a person is well and truly gay, all ex-gay ministries will do is cause him/her to get an unwarranted sense of shame over something not under their control.

it a sin like any other, of which we have no control according to Paul. So Why is there a special pass on this specific one?

Quote:And, really, if they don't want to be gay, the truth is, it's not their call. There may not be a single "Gay gene," but, as complicated as the genetics behind sexuality is, there's still a consensus that you can't change it with therapy.

Holy crap, are you serious? What about every other red blooded man who has been married for 20 years who has been hit on buy a younger woman? How does any of that sexual want and desire for that younger woman any less valid than a super charged appetite for a sausage fest?

What if my "herto-gene" is telling me have sex with my cleaning lady? Is that ok? Or what if I do not find blondes attractive anymore? Or I don't want to be an ass man anymore, what if I want to switch to boobs? Is it ok to switch my wife for one with a smaller ass and bigger boobs? What if my herto gene is screaming for racial diversity? Can I trade my wife for someone with darker skin?

No, I can't. Why? Because I made a vow to my wife, to put my wants and desires behind her needs, and her well being. These same vows are made by every man married in the sight of God. Sexual appetites change, fact of life. Wedding Vows don't. A gay man should be held to the same standard of accountability as everyone else.

I think the real question, Drich, is what are all the victims of this toxic organization going to do now?


Exodus President, Alan Chambers, sits down with gay and lesbian people hurt by the Church with the goal of reconciliation.

“It is strange to be someone who has both been hurt by the Church’s treatment of the LGBTQ community, and also to be someone who must apologize for being part of the very system of ignorance that perpetuated that hurt,” said Chambers. “Today it is as if I’ve just woken up to a greater sense of how painful it is to be a sinner in the hands of an angry church.”

Chambers also said:

“I am sorry for the pain and hurt that many of you have experienced. I am sorry some of you spent years working through the shame and guilt when your attractions didn’t change. I am sorry we promoted sexual orientation change efforts and reparative theories about sexual orientation that stigmatized parents.

“I am sorry I didn’t stand up to people publicly ‘on my side’ who called you names like sodomite—or worse. I am sorry that I, knowing some of you so well, failed to share publicly that the gay and lesbian people I know were every bit as capable of being amazing parents as the straight people that I know. I am sorry that when I celebrated a person coming to Christ and surrendering their sexuality to Him, I callously celebrated the end of relationships that broke your heart. I am sorry I have communicated that you and your families are less than me and mine.

“More than anything, I am sorry that so many have interpreted this religious rejection by Christians as God’s rejection. I am profoundly sorry that many have walked away from their faith and that some have chosen to end their lives.

“You have never been my enemy. I am very sorry that I have been yours. I hope changes in my own life, as well as the ones we announce tonight regarding Exodus International, will bring resolution, and show I am serious in both my regret and offer of friendship. I pledge that future endeavors will be focused on peace and common good.”

Drich Wrote:it a sin like any other, of which we have no control according to Paul. So Why is there a special pass on this specific one?

I think the proper question is, why do your co-religionists find this specific sin so much more terrible than almost all the others described throughout the Bible?

Correct me if I am wrong, but there are no religious organizations dedicated to 'curing' people of the vast majority of what is on that list.

Quote:My question remains. What if a man no longer wants to have gay feelings? Is he to be torn for his wife and kids because of this 'untreatable' condition? Is he doomed to succumb to his lustful desire because /society looks down on anyone who wishes to redirect his sexual desire back toward his wife through sexually specific consuling?

I can't imagine that having gay feelings would be a crisis for almost anybody if we didn't have a homophobic religion dominating our culture. And, in those cases, what is necessary is psychological help. Teaching a person to hate themselves and others like them is not therapy.

Actual scientists in the field of study have concluded that homosexuality, bisexuality, transgenderism are NOT mental illness, and only become so when they are repressed. In essence, Exodus was making people sick

http://tv.msnbc.com/2012/12/04/being-tra...order-apa/

Also Drich, there has not been a hetero or gay gene found, although there is some support that its genetic: the general consensus is that all of our sexualities are fluid on a sliding scale continuum. Perhaps if your church doctrine didn't teach that a majority of the population are sodomites then you wouldn't get the inevitable gay or lesbian trying to abide by gods rules by entering into a marriage for the sake of their eternal well being.

APA Wrote:AMERICAN PSYCHOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION What is sexual orientation? Sexual orientation refers to an enduring pattern of emotional, romantic, and/or sexual attractions to men, women, or both sexes. Sexual orientation also refers to a person’s sense of identity based on those attractions, related behaviors, and membership in a community of others who share those attractions. Research over several decades has demonstrated that sexual orientation ranges along a continuum, from exclusive attraction to the other sex to exclusive attraction to the same sex. However, sexual orientation is usually discussed in terms of three categories: heterosexual (having emotional, romantic, or sexual attractions to members of the other sex), gay/lesbian (having emotional, romantic, or sexual attractions to members of one’s own sex), and bisexual (having emotional, romantic, or sexual attractions to both men and women). http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx

(June 20, 2013 at 11:49 pm)Drich Wrote: it a sin like any other, of which we have no control according to Paul. So Why is there a special pass on this specific one?

But it is only a sin according to Paul. Jesus never mentions it at all.

So you think the word of a mere man surpasses the word of your Lord?

Tsk,tsk Drich.

Interestingly enough Jesus did have something to say on divorce.......

Quote:For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter. And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery." —Mark 1:1-12

Yet all those good little christians railing against the sin of homosexuality have no problem with getting divorced. And don't ostracise those who do get divorced.

Isn't hypocrisy fun?

(June 21, 2013 at 1:37 am)Ryantology Wrote: I think the proper question is, why do your co-religionists find this specific sin so much more terrible than almost

For the same reason some of you feel you can judge the actions of God against your own version of 'morality'

It's a super inflated sense of self right-ness when measured against a gander of like minded believers. In short it is because people derive righteousness apart from the God of the bible, or in a word. They are self righteous.

Quote:Correct me if I am wrong, but there are no religious organizations dedicated to 'curing' people of the vast majority of what is on that list.

In biblically based churches there are consulors who specialize in all manner of sins. The larger the church the more support and more sins that are covered. But for most churches the 'major' or most life changing disruptive sins gets the most attention.

Quote:I can't imagine that having gay feelings would be a crisis for almost anybody if we didn't have a homophobic religion dominating our culture. And, in those cases, what is necessary is psychological help. Teaching a person to hate themselves and others like them is not therapy.

If gay feelings simply stopped at just feelings then i doubt we would have very many gay people. The fact that we do suggests that feelings are just a gateway, and some people see that and want to stop before it becomes a problem. Or someone has let it go for too long and it is now out of control and this sort of consuling is their only hope in returning to the family that they love.

---

(June 21, 2013 at 6:43 am)Zen Badger Wrote: But it is only a sin according to Paul. Jesus never mentions it at all.

Not true.
Christ underscores the importance and the sanctity of marriage and the marriage bed as the only place where sex of any kind, even the very thought of it is not a sin.

Quote:So you think the word of a mere man surpasses the word of your Lord?

Tsk,tsk Drich.

Maybe you should read your bible before trying to teach out of it.

Interestingly enough Jesus did have something to say on divorce.......

Quote:For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter. And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery." —Mark 1:1-12

Uh, No. This is what Mark 1:1-12 actually says

1 The Good News about Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God,[a] begins 2 with what the prophet Isaiah said would happen. He wrote:

“Listen! I will send my messenger ahead of you.
He will prepare the way for you.”

3 “There is someone shouting in the desert:
‘Prepare the way for the Lord.
Make the road straight for him.’”

4 So John the Baptizer came and was baptizing people in the desert area. He told them to be baptized to show that they wanted to change their lives, and then their sins would be forgiven. 5 All the people from Judea, including everyone from Jerusalem, came out to John. They confessed the bad things they had done, and he baptized them in the Jordan River.

6 John wore clothes made from camel’s hair and a leather belt around his waist. He ate locusts and wild honey.

7 This is what John told the people: “There is someone coming later who is able to do more than I can. I am not good enough to be the slave who stoops down to untie his sandals. 8 I baptize you with water, but the one who is coming will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Jesus Is Baptized by John
9 About that time Jesus came from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to the place where John was. John baptized Jesus in the Jordan River. 10 As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw the sky torn open. The Spirit came down on him like a dove. 11 A voice came from heaven and said, “You are my Son, the one I love. I am very pleased with you.”

Jesus Goes Away to Be Tempted
12 Then the Spirit sent Jesus into the desert alone. 13 He was there for 40 days, being tempted by Satan. During this time he was out among the wild animals. Then angels came and helped him.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=ERV

Quote:Yet all those good little christians railing against the sin of homosexuality have no problem with getting divorced. And don't ostracise those who do get divorced.

Isn't hypocrisy fun?

Now ask if I am divorced

(June 21, 2013 at 8:44 am)Drich Wrote: If gay feelings simply stopped at just feelings then i doubt we would have very many gay people. The fact that we do suggests that feelings are just a gateway, and some people see that and want to stop before it becomes a problem. Or someone has let it go for too long and it is now out of control and this sort of consuling is their only hope in returning to the family that they love.

Shall I let you in on a secret, Drich? Homosexual attraction isn't some cursed sigil on the heart of every gay man. It's a sexual attraction, the same as any other. The same as heterosexual attraction. The reason we have people having gay sex is the same reason we have people having heterosexual sex; people like having sex. It's a natural instinct.

The issue here is that you are making the gross error of treating homosexual attractions and sex as a problem intrinsically, something that needs to be fought against at all times, or else it's a "problem." I suggest to you that it is not, and that the reason we have so many families troubled by same sex attraction is because we have a culture, influenced by religion, that has enforced heteronormative gender and sex roles and, until quite recently, a mostly violent and discriminatory response to those who break them.

The issue isn't in gay people leaving their families. It's in having a society that forced them into a familial configuration that doesn't fit right in the first place, rather than just allowing them to form one in a way that works for them. The problem is this desperate need of religious groups to preserve their nuclear family ideal, no matter who they need to trample to make that the standard.

Quote:Holy crap, are you serious? What about every other red blooded man who has been married for 20 years who has been hit on buy a younger woman? How does any of that sexual want and desire for that younger woman any less valid than a super charged appetite for a sausage fest?

It doesn't, but then, attraction isn't the issue you're objecting to, here. Infidelity is. Being attracted to someone isn't a bad thing, but acting on that attraction outside the bounds of an existing relationship is.

Quote:What if my "herto-gene" is telling me have sex with my cleaning lady? Is that ok?

Yes, but if you're married you might want to talk to the missus about it before you go ahead with it. And if she's not into it, keep it in your pants. And if she is but the cleaning lady isn't, same deal. Once again, the problem you're seeing has nothing to do with same sex attraction, but with infidelity.

Quote: Or what if I do not find blondes attractive anymore? Or I don't want to be an ass man anymore, what if I want to switch to boobs? Is it ok to switch my wife for one with a smaller ass and bigger boobs? What if my herto gene is screaming for racial diversity? Can I trade my wife for someone with darker skin?

That's between you and your wife. What the hell is wrong with polyamory, anyway?

Quote:No, I can't. Why? Because I made a vow to my wife, to put my wants and desires behind her needs, and her well being. These same vows are made by every man married in the sight of God. Sexual appetites change, fact of life. Wedding Vows don't. A gay man should be held to the same standard of accountability as everyone else.

Agreed. But then, there's a difference between developing a craving for, say, redheads, and living in a society that systematically enforces a preconception that your attraction to redheads is different and sinful, and deserving of punishment. There's a difference between finding redheads attractive and being biologically predisposed to only find redheads attractive, and yet living in a society that forces you to hide that attraction and get married to a brunette, whom you can't find attractive, just to keep up appearances.

I agree with you that cheating isn't cool, but you have to admit that the situation is less in the gay man's control than it probably should be. He should get a divorce and be allowed to marry someone he's genuinely attracted to.

Oh wait, you guys aren't keen on either of those things, either...

(June 21, 2013 at 8:44 am)Drich Wrote: For the same reason some of you feel you can judge the actions of God against your own version of 'morality'

I can judge the actions of God against his own morality, if you prefer. He does not even meet his own standards.

Quote:It's a super inflated sense of self right-ness when measured against a gander of like minded believers. In short it is because people derive righteousness apart from the God of the bible, or in a word. They are self righteous.

I'm certain they would tell you that they are interpreting the Bible and God's word correctly. Who's correct and how do you prove it? I bet that would be a debate that would never end.

Quote:In biblically based churches there are consulors who specialize in all manner of sins. The larger the church the more support and more sins that are covered. But for most churches the 'major' or most life changing disruptive sins gets the most attention.

The irony of this being that the only reason homosexuality is life-changing and disruptive is because Christianity views them as enemies of God. Without that constant and heavy negative influence, homosexuals would not live lives significantly different from heterosexuals.

Quote:If gay feelings simply stopped at just feelings then i doubt we would have very many gay people. The fact that we do suggests that feelings are just a gateway, and some people see that and want to stop before it becomes a problem.

Again, it is only a problem for people because Christians try so hard to make it a problem for them. If the roles were reversed and homosexuals oppressed heterosexuals in the same way, you would be saying precisely the opposite of what you do now and heterosexuality would be a problem in your eyes.

Quote: Or someone has let it go for too long and it is now out of control and this sort of consuling is their only hope in returning to the family that they love.

If a family ostracizes someone for their sexual orientation, that is not a family who is worth returning to, because that is not a family who loves them.

(June 21, 2013 at 8:44 am)Drich Wrote: [quote='Zen Badger' pid='466473' dateline='1371811403']
But it is only a sin according to Paul. Jesus never mentions it at all.

Quote:Not true.
Christ underscores the importance and the sanctity of marriage and the marriage bed as the only place where sex of any kind, even the very thought of it is not a sin.

So if gays are allowed to get married they will no longer be sinners.
By your own words you are saying that it is only a sin because they are not married.

Quote:So you think the word of a mere man surpasses the word of your Lord?

Tsk,tsk Drich.

Quote:Maybe you should read your bible before trying to teach out of it.

Interestingly enough Jesus did have something to say on divorce.......

[quote]For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter. And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery." —Mark 1:1-12

Uh, No. This is what Mark 1:1-12 actually says

1 The Good News about Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God,[a] begins 2 with what the prophet Isaiah said would happen. He wrote:

“Listen! I will send my messenger ahead of you.
He will prepare the way for you.”

3 “There is someone shouting in the desert:
‘Prepare the way for the Lord.
Make the road straight for him.’”

4 So John the Baptizer came and was baptizing people in the desert area. He told them to be baptized to show that they wanted to change their lives, and then their sins would be forgiven. 5 All the people from Judea, including everyone from Jerusalem, came out to John. They confessed the bad things they had done, and he baptized them in the Jordan River.

6 John wore clothes made from camel’s hair and a leather belt around his waist. He ate locusts and wild honey.

7 This is what John told the people: “There is someone coming later who is able to do more than I can. I am not good enough to be the slave who stoops down to untie his sandals. 8 I baptize you with water, but the one who is coming will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Jesus Is Baptized by John
9 About that time Jesus came from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to the place where John was. John baptized Jesus in the Jordan River. 10 As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw the sky torn open. The Spirit came down on him like a dove. 11 A voice came from heaven and said, “You are my Son, the one I love. I am very pleased with you.”

Jesus Goes Away to Be Tempted
12 Then the Spirit sent Jesus into the desert alone. 13 He was there for 40 days, being tempted by Satan. During this time he was out among the wild animals. Then angels came and helped him.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...ersion=ERV[/quote]
Very true, it is actually Mark 19(the christian site I pulled the quote from got it wrong)

Quote:Yet all those good little christians railing against the sin of homosexuality have no problem with getting divorced. And don't ostracise those who do get divorced.

Isn't hypocrisy fun?

Quote:Now ask if I am divorced

So fucking what if you're not divorced.

I'm not talking about you in particular.

I'm talking about christian hypocrites in general. So address my argument instead of trying to put a strawman up.

People like Newt Gingrich and Rush Limbaugh who spew forth on the "sanctity" of marriage(a meaningless term if ever I heard one) being threatened by gay weddings yet have had multiple divorces.
They are just two that spring to mind, thousands of devout christians get divorced every year despite jesus's clear injunction not to.

Yet will rail against gays even though jesus says nothing on the subject..

Fucking hypocrites, all of you.