(June 21, 2013 at 12:23 am)Ryantology Wrote:

(June 20, 2013 at 11:52 pm)Godschild Wrote: God's punishment after He judged them evil, they had lead some of Israel to worship false gods.

Since fraudo has repeatedly proven less than up to the task, perhaps you can explain to me how infants and children can be evil enough to deserve being slaughtered en masse. Go into detail about how they must have certainly been complicit in whatever crime God deemed them worthy of violent and painful death.

Those children died to punish the parents, God is justly returning a horror, those children do have eternal life with God, who said God allowed the innocent children and infants to suffer, not scripture.

---

(June 21, 2013 at 1:00 am)max-greece Wrote:

(June 20, 2013 at 11:52 pm)Godschild Wrote: God's punishment after He judged them evil, they had lead some of Israel to worship false gods.

And the punishment he chose looks reasonable to you? Seems highly unlikely they were all involved in leading some Israelites astray, and how come the Israelites are not held accountable for being so gullible?

Whatever you think of their crime - virgin sex slaves? Really? That's a moral position you support? What am I saying support? That's a moral position you worship.

It's just in the sight of the omniscient God who knows the hearts of all people, so yes it's reasonable. They were all guilty of sin, and like I said God knows their hearts and all of them were worshiping a false God, you know the ones made of wood, stone or metal. You can believe this, they were, if you would read and study scripture you would see it right there in plain English.
Now you are the one making a claim from scripture so prove they were to be used as sex slaves, just show us the passages that say they were sex slave or that they were raped, you made this claim defend it, you do have a Bible do you not, if not there are Bibles on the net.

(June 21, 2013 at 5:28 pm)Godschild Wrote: Now you are the one making a claim from scripture so prove they were to be used as sex slaves, just show us the passages that say they were sex slave or that they were raped, you made this claim defend it, you do have a Bible do you not, if not there are Bibles on the net.

I am eagerly waiting for this proof! Well played GC.

(June 21, 2013 at 2:11 am)missluckie26 Wrote: Pray tell, what were you doing at church, my love?

There was a meeting for my charity being held in the back.

Godschild Wrote:Those children died to punish the parents, God is justly returning a horror, those children do have eternal life with God, who said God allowed the innocent children and infants to suffer, not scripture.

You don't think people suffer when they're murdered, GC? Do you know what it feels like to be stabbed? I mean, I'm assuming these children died by the sword, but it doesn't matter; stabbing hurts. I know this to be true. It's as far from pleasant as one could imagine. So's being bludgeoned, or burned... any way of dying, really. That's why we don't like being violently killed.

Why do I even have to explain this to you?

Quote:Now you are the one making a claim from scripture so prove they were to be used as sex slaves, just show us the passages that say they were sex slave or that they were raped, you made this claim defend it, you do have a Bible do you not, if not there are Bibles on the net.

I looked it up. Now, given that it's the bible and it sort of does what you guys do today, and dresses up atrocities in more pleasant language as if that's an excuse, but here:

Judges 21: 11-14 Wrote:11 And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man.

12 And they found among the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan.

13 And the whole congregation sent some to speak to the children of Benjamin that were in the rock Rimmon, and to call peaceably unto them.

14 And Benjamin came again at that time; and they gave them wives which they had saved alive of the women of Jabeshgilead: and yet so they sufficed them not.

So, to be clear: kill the men, non virgin women and children, and keep the virgins. Kind of a clear implication anyway. But then, these kidnapped survivors of a genocidal slaughter are given away like the property of their kidnappers to be "wives" to strangers. I doubt that's what they wanted.

So indentured servants, as well as sex slaves. Yes, that does make it better, doesn't it?

No doubt you will scrabble to retain your blindness here; you may be tempted to argue that since the scripture doesn't specifically use the word "rape," then they weren't, and that they wanted to be given away like chattel, the spoils of war from a murderous conflict that destroyed everything they had ever known. I will not argue against such idiocy, but will in fact leave you to wallow in your callow ignorance, if that is the path in which you wish to indulge.

I do hope for something more interesting from you, however.

Godschild Wrote:Those children died to punish the parents, God is justly returning a horror, those children do have eternal life with God, who said God allowed the innocent children and infants to suffer, not scripture.

Esq Wrote:You don't think people suffer when they're murdered, GC? Do you know what it feels like to be stabbed? I mean, I'm assuming these children died by the sword, but it doesn't matter; stabbing hurts. I know this to be true. It's as far from pleasant as one could imagine. So's being bludgeoned, or burned... any way of dying, really. That's why we don't like being violently killed.

Why do I even have to explain this to you?

You try because it makes you feel like somebody, you need a life, no you need Christ.
Yes, I know people feel pain when they are stabbed, the one thing you can not discount is the mercy God could have and cause these children to feel nothing, omnipotent.

GC Wrote:Now you are the one making a claim from scripture so prove they were to be used as sex slaves, just show us the passages that say they were sex slave or that they were raped, you made this claim defend it, you do have a Bible do you not, if not there are Bibles on the net.

Esq Wrote:I looked it up. Now, given that it's the bible and it sort of does what you guys do today, and dresses up atrocities in more pleasant language as if that's an excuse, but here:

This is not what you've been saying, you've been spouting all the horrible vile your mind can come up with about the Bible, now that you can not support that vile with the very thing you try to disgrace you have to make excuses and why so you can keep on saying every untruth about scripture you can dream up.

Judges 21: 11-14 Wrote:

---

11 And this is the thing that ye shall do, Ye shall utterly destroy every male, and every woman that hath lain by man.

12 And they found among the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan.

13 And the whole congregation sent some to speak to the children of Benjamin that were in the rock Rimmon, and to call peaceably unto them.

14 And Benjamin came again at that time; and they gave them wives which they had saved alive of the women of Jabeshgilead: and yet so they sufficed them not.

---

Esq Wrote:So, to be clear: kill the men, non virgin women and children, and keep the virgins. Kind of a clear implication anyway. But then, these kidnapped survivors of a genocidal slaughter are given away like the property of their kidnappers to be "wives" to strangers. I doubt that's what they wanted.

Somethings can be worse than death, yet they would have preferred to be the wives of their conquers than to be left with nothing, no husbands, no food, no means to make a living other than prostitution, no where to live in safety. So they could have left them to a worse fate.

Esq Wrote:So indentured servants, as well as sex slaves. Yes, that does make it better, doesn't it?

Exactly were does it say that, why do you think these women were mistreated when the scriptures did not mention such. Why is it you see the worse in a people you do not know, why do you assume the worse of the Israelites. Your imagination is not only wild it's most distasteful, this leads to a lie.

esq Wrote:No doubt you will scrabble to retain your blindness here; you may be tempted to argue that since the scripture doesn't specifically use the word "rape," then they weren't, and that they wanted to be given away like chattel, the spoils of war from a murderous conflict that destroyed everything they had ever known. I will not argue against such idiocy, but will in fact leave you to wallow in your callow ignorance, if that is the path in which you wish to indulge.

I do hope for something more interesting from you, however.

You saw that did you, yep the word rape was not used so why do you assume the women were, again you assume the worst in people of ancient days. You claim that atheist have morals yet will claim anyone in scripture do not posses morals, why are you so bigoted, do you have no shame. I indulge in seeking truth, you on the other hand seek to create your own truth out of lies, just exactly how does that set with reason, you know that which you claim to have yet, continue to demonstrate the opposite. You have completely and absolutely failed in your attempt to pronounce guilt upon these people, you've given no facts to the contrary of scripture, only the same nonsense that comes from your warped mind. So the scriptures stand on their own as they always do.

(June 22, 2013 at 12:54 pm)Godschild Wrote: You try because it makes you feel like somebody, you need a life, no you need Christ.

What I need, is a rational theist to debate with.

Quote:Yes, I know people feel pain when they are stabbed, the one thing you can not discount is the mercy God could have and cause these children to feel nothing, omnipotent.

Please remember you said this, because I'm going to use it to beat your argument into the ground in a little while.

GC Wrote:This is not what you've been saying, you've been spouting all the horrible vile your mind can come up with about the Bible, now that you can not support that vile with the very thing you try to disgrace you have to make excuses and why so you can keep on saying every untruth about scripture you can dream up.

I thought the words were pretty clear? Murdered family, given away like property... what part of this seems good to you?

Quote:Somethings can be worse than death, yet they would have preferred to be the wives of their conquers than to be left with nothing, no husbands, no food, no means to make a living other than prostitution, no where to live in safety. So they could have left them to a worse fate.

So, a couple of cray cray ideas: one... how about no genocide? I know, it must seem terribly unorthodox, but how about your all good, all righteous god restrain himself for once and not murder everyone?

Another idea, since your god's such a moral person and such, is having his chosen people take care of the virgin women without forcing them into marriage to a stranger? Or hell, just feed them manna from heaven, he's sort of into that, no?

And why just the virgins, by the way? What else are we supposed to take from that?

Quote:Exactly were does it say that, why do you think these women were mistreated when the scriptures did not mention such. Why is it you see the worse in a people you do not know, why do you assume the worse of the Israelites. Your imagination is not only wild it's most distasteful, this leads to a lie.

Well, it was awfully specific about who to kill, and who to take hostage. And then it went on to describe giving women away like raffle prizes. And your bible does have a lot of attendant commandments regarding women being submissive to their husbands and all. I'm just putting together the pieces. Let's flip the script, though; why are you so quick to defend this stuff?

Oh, and are you still remembering that thing I told you to earlier? Cause that's coming up after the break.

Quote:You saw that did you, yep the word rape was not used so why do you assume the women were, again you assume the worst in people of ancient days.

Oh boy, here it is!

Where in the goddamn bible does it say that god made it so the children that were slaughtered didn't feel pain, you hypocrite?

This is just the perfect sign of your towering lack of self awareness, GC. Anyone says anything bad about god, and you demand that the scriptures use exacting, perfectly accurate language or else it didn't happen. You need to defend god? Well shit, let's just go making stuff up that doesn't even begin to appear in the book!

Which is it, GC? Does the bible need to painstakingly spell shit out before it's real, or can we read between the lines? Why is it you can make up whatever is needed for god to come out smelling like a rose, but anyone who disagrees with you has to draw you a fucking roadmap?

Quote:You claim that atheist have morals yet will claim anyone in scripture do not posses morals, why are you so bigoted, do you have no shame.

Silly christian, you can't be bigoted against fictional people. Least of all fictional murderers.

Quote:I indulge in seeking truth, you on the other hand seek to create your own truth out of lies, just exactly how does that set with reason, you know that which you claim to have yet, continue to demonstrate the opposite.

You indulge in whatever hand wringing double standards you need to to excuse immorality, all the while pointing fingers like any good self righteous hypocrite would.

You should join the clergy, you'd fit right in.

Quote: You have completely and absolutely failed in your attempt to pronounce guilt upon these people, you've given no facts to the contrary of scripture, only the same nonsense that comes from your warped mind. So the scriptures stand on their own as they always do.

So, when the scriptures don't say any of the things you've claimed them to say either, I should just ignore you? Well, I was planning to do that anyway, but I'm happy you gave me an out in this particular pile of vapid drivel. Thanks, dude.

(June 22, 2013 at 12:54 pm)Godschild Wrote: You try because it makes you feel like somebody, you need a life, no you need Christ.

Esq Wrote:What I need, is a rational theist to debate with.

You have, we've been waiting on some rational thoughts to come out of your head if you can manage it.

GC Wrote:Yes, I know people feel pain when they are stabbed, the one thing you can not discount is the mercy God could have and cause these children to feel nothing, omnipotent.

Esq Wrote:Please remember you said this, because I'm going to use it to beat your argument into the ground in a little while.

I will, because I know you like to read into my statements what you want to see, that's a flaw that can cost you.

GC Wrote:This is not what you've been saying, you've been spouting all the horrible vile your mind can come up with about the Bible, now that you can not support that vile with the very thing you try to disgrace you have to make excuses and why so you can keep on saying every untruth about scripture you can dream up.

Esq Wrote:I thought the words were pretty clear? Murdered family, given away like property... what part of this seems good to you?

Please I'm asking, show where it says murder in the scriptures you quoted, we're all waiting. You are the one making the claim of murder and rape, don't you think it's about time you prove this so we can move on, I mean really this is getting old.

GC Wrote:Somethings can be worse than death, yet they would have preferred to be the wives of their conquers than to be left with nothing, no husbands, no food, no means to make a living other than prostitution, no where to live in safety. So they could have left them to a worse fate.

Esq Wrote:So, a couple of cray cray ideas: one... how about no genocide? I know, it must seem terribly unorthodox, but how about your all good, all righteous god restrain himself for once and not murder everyone?

There has to be punishment for sin but, only after judgement, and that is precisely what took place. If God let any sin go He would be unjust, and if He did you would complain even more when He judges you. God can not murder, He can however remove the life He gives to anyone any time it suits His will and accomplish it in any way that brings glory to His name.

Esq Wrote:Another idea, since your god's such a moral person and such, is having his chosen people take care of the virgin women without forcing them into marriage to a stranger? Or hell, just feed them manna from heaven, he's sort of into that, no?

Your first mistake here is calling God a person, He is above all. Those women were sinful and I assume God was punishing them through marriage to their conquerors seems a reasonable assumption. he could have removed His mercy and left them to fend for themselves.

Esq Wrote:And why just the virgins, by the way? What else are we supposed to take from that?

Take this away from it, those men would want virgins for their wives, the culture then made that most desirable. These women were coming into child bearing age also another desirable thing in that culture.

GC Wrote:Exactly were does it say that, why do you think these women were mistreated when the scriptures did not mention such. Why is it you see the worse in a people you do not know, why do you assume the worse of the Israelites. Your imagination is not only wild it's most distasteful, this leads to a lie.

Esq Wrote:Well, it was awfully specific about who to kill, and who to take hostage. And then it went on to describe giving women away like raffle prizes. And your bible does have a lot of attendant commandments regarding women being submissive to their husbands and all. I'm just putting together the pieces. Let's flip the script, though; why are you so quick to defend this stuff?

I am defending what I believe, God's word needs no defending, you have only stated what you want God's word to say so you can complain, so we have not needed to defend God's word, just trying to correct your misrepresentation of God's word. God is very specific in what He wants, if you studied scripture you would see this.

Esq Wrote:Oh, and are you still remembering that thing I told you to earlier? Cause that's coming up after the break.

You shouldn't have waited so long to misrepresent what I said, I'm glad we're about to get there.

GC Wrote:You saw that did you, yep the word rape was not used so why do you assume the women were, again you assume the worst in people of ancient days.

Esq Wrote:Oh boy, here it is!

Where in the goddamn bible does it say that god made it so the children that were slaughtered didn't feel pain, you hypocrite?

This is just the perfect sign of your towering lack of self awareness, GC. Anyone says anything bad about god, and you demand that the scriptures use exacting, perfectly accurate language or else it didn't happen. You need to defend god? Well shit, let's just go making stuff up that doesn't even begin to appear in the book!

It doesn't say that and I did not say it did, why would I follow in your misguided footsteps when I have the Holy Spirit to guide me. So the only hypocrite here is you buddy boy. Oh, why so bent out of shape, it's unbecoming, please try to do better.
You're the one who has said the scripture you quoted says murder and rape, so you are doing some double talk here kiddo. If you will go back and read what I said you will see the word could, that means a suggestion. Oh yes, I made a suggestion not a statement of claim as you did, you said it was murder, I said God could, big difference don't you think.

Esq Wrote:Which is it, GC? Does the bible need to painstakingly spell shit out before it's real, or can we read between the lines? Why is it you can make up whatever is needed for god to come out smelling like a rose, but anyone who disagrees with you has to draw you a fucking roadmap?

You don't read between the lines you actually change what it says and when you get called out on it you stumble all over yourself trying to defend the indefensible. I made nothing up, I gave an assumption you must be careful how you read things, your misinterpretation of scripture and what I said make you look quite silly.

GC Wrote:You claim that atheist have morals yet will claim anyone in scripture do not posses morals, why are you so bigoted, do you have no shame.

Esq Wrote:Silly christian, you can't be bigoted against fictional people. Least of all fictional murderers.

Now you're making yourself look plain stupid, the Israelites are all over history, this being true makes it true you're bigoted against them, sorry but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

GC Wrote:I indulge in seeking truth, you on the other hand seek to create your own truth out of lies, just exactly how does that set with reason, you know that which you claim to have yet, continue to demonstrate the opposite.

Esq Wrote:You indulge in whatever hand wringing double standards you need to to excuse immorality, all the while pointing fingers like any good self righteous hypocrite would.

I'm pointing a finger at one who is guilty of misrepresenting the verses he quoted, you still have not proven anything you've claimed, you are stumbling around hoping for a solution to your self made problem. Hey you're hoping, isn't that something only Christians do, are you beginning to see the light. I can only hope so, and that is true.

Esq Wrote:You should join the clergy, you'd fit right in.

God has not called me to be a preacher, He did call me to be a deacon and that is an awesome thing, I will be eternally grateful.

GC Wrote:You have completely and absolutely failed in your attempt to pronounce guilt upon these people, you've given no facts to the contrary of scripture, only the same nonsense that comes from your warped mind. So the scriptures stand on their own as they always do.

Esq Wrote:So, when the scriptures don't say any of the things you've claimed them to say either, I should just ignore you? Well, I was planning to do that anyway, but I'm happy you gave me an out in this particular pile of vapid drivel. Thanks, dude.

The only vapid drivel has come from you because, the only thing you care about in this argument is to make the scriptures say what you through your delusional mind want them to say. Real truth means nothing to you, that has been shown again when you accused me of claiming the scriptures said something they do not. If you had only read the word could I would not have had to waste this time trying to explain the real truth to you. Please be more careful in the future so we can avoid this time wasting you bring us to, or maybe yet it would be better if you just ignored our discussions on what scriptures really say.

(June 22, 2013 at 7:38 pm)Godschild Wrote: the only thing you care about in this argument is to make the scriptures say what you through your delusional mind want them to say.

That is precisely what theists do, which is why no two denominations can agree on how scripture should be interpreted.

(June 21, 2013 at 5:16 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: According to whom? Why?

Every single argument you make which assumes God exists is meaningless if he doesn't. You can't make a valid point until you establish that God exists.

Quote:No, Reductio ad absurdum. If you applied your same skepticism you show towards God’s existence and His word to your own self you’d render all proof impossible. In fact, if your atheism were true, it’d be impossible to know anything at all, so the very fact that we can obtain knowledge is proof God exists.

Nope. It's an appeal to solipsism and nothing else. You're telling me that if I refuse to believe that images my mind generates are anything but mental glitches, I can't believe anything my senses tell me. If that really is true, then I may not even be sitting here typing this post.

The flaw in your argument is that, with special physiological exceptions (and discounting solipsism), we all experience sensory input in mostly the same way. You would not be able to understand what I am trying to tell you if it didn't work that way. We both identify the same wavelengths of light as the same colors, same sounds. If we could not trust them at all, we could never convey useful information or do anything else. Our senses are subject to all manner of glitches and strange phenomena, some we understand and some we don't, but the basis for these glitches is neurochemical every time we trace it to its sources. This is why the only sensory input which is reliable is that which all humans can experience without obviously biased preconditions such as "open your mind to god".

You derive your 'truth' about God from a source nobody in their right mind should ever trust as anything more than a literary artifact from a simpler time, when people made up wild and crazy explanations for phenomena they did not understand. It's just one of thousands of very similar creation myths. The only thing special about yours is that it persists better than some others. Any evidence you claim suggests your God is no different or more credible than the evidence any other religion offers to support its deities or spirits. If your evidence is valid only for you and cannot be shared or empirically studied, there is no reason not to treat you as if you are lying, confused, or insane.

Quote:We all actually receive better than we deserve because we live in a Universe created by a gracious God.

Why would God create something and then hold it in such low regard as to suggest that the only thing stopping him from abusing it is that he feels too gracious to do so? It reflects poorly on his own craftsmanship.

(June 21, 2013 at 1:21 am)cato123 Wrote: Waldorff,
Is the Bible the infallible word of God?
Yes or no.

(June 21, 2013 at 5:16 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote: The originals, yes.

Where are these originals, and how are you certain they actually are original and legitimate?

(June 21, 2013 at 5:28 pm)Godschild Wrote: Those children died to punish the parents, God is justly returning a horror, those children do have eternal life with God, who said God allowed the innocent children and infants to suffer, not scripture.

The children died, therefore the children were punished for the crimes of their parents. Which, for most of them, was the crime of living in Egypt at the wrong time. What monsters.

Quote:It's just in the sight of the omniscient God who knows the hearts of all people, so yes it's reasonable. They were all guilty of sin, and like I said God knows their hearts and all of them were worshiping a false God, you know the ones made of wood, stone or metal. You can believe this, they were, if you would read and study scripture you would see it right there in plain English.

God can know everything about everyone and still be evil. That you can read how he is depicted in the Bible and still believe that everything he does is right and just says a lot about the power of religion to program simple minds. Actions speak louder than even God's word.

Eulogy from Creatures of Light and Darkness, by Roger Zelazny:

"Insofar as I may be heard by anything, which may or may not care what I say, I ask, if it matters, that you be forgiven for anything you may have done or failed to do which requires forgiveness. Conversely, if not forgiveness but something else may be required to insure any possible benefit for which you may be eligible after the destruction of your body, I ask that this, whatever it may be, be granted or withheld, as the case may be, in such a manner as to insure your receiving said benefit. I ask this in my capacity as your elected intermediary between yourself and that which may not be yourself, but which may have an interest in the matter of your receiving as much as it is possible for you to receive of this thing, and which may in some way be influenced by this ceremony. Amen."

(June 21, 2013 at 5:16 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:

(June 21, 2013 at 1:21 am)cato123 Wrote: Waldorff,
Is the Bible the infallible word of God?
Yes or no.

The originals, yes.

How closely does the KJV approximate infallible?