(June 24, 2013 at 1:03 pm)Tonus Wrote: To present god as being capable of wicked acts is to make him capable of evil. And that makes it difficult (if not impossible) to love him for who he is. And then the offer of heaven and hell becomes a matter of coercion and not love. You wouldn't serve god because he deserves your love, you'd serve him because an eternity in heaven sounds a lot less painful than an eternity in hell. So god has to be good. And that leads to rationalizations and beliefs that I find difficult to reconcile.

This is why the whole idea of Christian salvation sounds absurd to me. On one hand, it can only honestly be earned by ignoring one's selfish desires in favor of having a relationship with God. On the other hand, God offers rewards for accepting and punishments for refusing, which is a clear appeal to selfish desires. Either the risk/reward gambit is a red herring, or God is not being honest about what he really wants. You would think that if what God really wanted was a relationship with people who come of their own free will, wanting nothing but fellowship with their creator, the rewards of everlasting life and the punishments of hell would not be necessary enticements. Indeed, they can be nothing but counterproductive.

It just shows the inconsistency of the belief system. We have Christians on this forum who are blissfully sanctimonious in telling us that we refuse God because we care only about ourselves, yet virtually all of them mention the rewards (such as life everlasting) they can't wait to receive in exchange for their dedication. It's obvious what they really care about. Note how upset they get when you confront them with a literal interpretation of the Bible. The reason why is obvious: if you interpret it literally, pretty much nobody is going to heaven when they die.

fr0d0 Wrote:To say that the bible is evidence of the opposite is to say that the authors wrote the opposite of what they understood.

No doubt the authors of the Bible thought it was a good thing for all of their enemies to die. God is the tool by which they justified themselves.

(June 24, 2013 at 12:52 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: You can easily convince me Ryan. All you have to do is explain how genocide is always unjust. I haven't bothered looking at a dictionary but it could be there in black and white.
What that doesn't buy you, sadly, is yet another wild claim that the bible is supporting your outrageous suggestions.

So man = god in Ryan world.

That's nice. But there's the subject over there on another planet. The subject here if that God is a lot different to man.

Where does God act in any way less than perfectly morally? REMINDER: You haven't shown us yet!

Fr0d0: Look in Genesis 6:9 and you will read all about the genocidal wrath that your "benevolent" god possesses. Yet, for some reason, your "benevolent", moral god decides to save a drunken sailor's family. Yet, you claim that your god is moral. What a joke.

(June 24, 2013 at 12:52 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: You can easily convince me Ryan. All you have to do is explain how genocide is always unjust. I haven't bothered looking at a dictionary but it could be there in black and white.

I can't convince you, because you have less respect for human life than I do. I can't say anything which can change that. If you respected human life as I do, you would find no justification for genocide.

Quote:So man = god in Ryan world.

There is no God in Ryan world.

Quote:That's nice. But there's the subject over there on another planet. The subject here if that God is a lot different to man.

Then, why do you so frequently resort to comparing God's actions and justifications to those exhibited by man's?

Quote:Where does God act in any way less than perfectly morally? REMINDER: You haven't shown us yet!

There's no such thing as perfect morals, so that is irrelevant. God acts in ways few humans would consider moral among their peers. You hold God's morality to a lower standard than you hold man's morality. That is what is relevant.

(June 24, 2013 at 2:31 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: What nonsense. The bible is written about a good god.

Hardly. -You- believe in a "good god", which is precisely why so much of the bible ought to be discarded for what it is.

(June 24, 2013 at 2:35 pm)sarcasticgeographer Wrote: Fr0d0: Look in Genesis 6:9 and you will read all about the genocidal wrath that your "benevolent" god possesses. Yet, for some reason, your "benevolent", moral god decides to save a drunken sailor's family. Yet, you claim that your god is moral. What a joke.

You need to understand what you're reading before you claim it says the opposite of what it does.

Quote:The bible is written about a good god.

You must be reading a different bible, Frods. Yhwh is a fucking murderous, vain, petty, prick.

(June 24, 2013 at 2:48 pm)Ryantology Wrote:

(June 24, 2013 at 12:52 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: You can easily convince me Ryan. All you have to do is explain how genocide is always unjust. I haven't bothered looking at a dictionary but it could be there in black and white.

I can't convince you

Good. You have no answer. Question answered then. Let's move on.

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(June 24, 2013 at 2:48 pm)Ryantology Wrote:

Quote:So man = god in Ryan world.

There is no God in Ryan world.

Same thing

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(June 24, 2013 at 2:48 pm)Ryantology Wrote:

Quote:That's nice. But there's the subject over there on another planet. The subject here if that God is a lot different to man.

Then, why do you so frequently resort to comparing God's actions and justifications to those exhibited by man's?

We understand Gods morality because we have a sense of ethical correctness which we apply selfishly. Humans can appreciate the reason for justice.

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(June 24, 2013 at 2:48 pm)Ryantology Wrote:

Quote:That's nice. But there's the subject over there on another planet. The subject here if that God is a lot different to man.

Then, why do you so frequently resort to comparing God's actions and justifications to those exhibited by man's?

We understand Gods morality because we have a sense of ethical correctness which we apply selfishly. Humans can appreciate the reason for justice.

(June 24, 2013 at 2:31 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: The bible is written about a good god. It's reasoning for him entails goodness.

I don't see where the OT makes such claims. It notes that he is a powerful god, a vengeful god, a jealous god, he is the god of armies. The NT puts a happier face on him, perhaps due to changing points of view on the nature of god or gods or because circumstances made a more benevolent god palatable to the masses. That creates a conflict when one decides to try and reconcile the god of the OT with the kinder, gentler one being offered for sale in the NT.

(June 24, 2013 at 2:56 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Good. You have no answer. Question answered then. Let's move on.

I have no answer which would be acceptable to a psychopath.

(June 24, 2013 at 2:48 pm)Ryantology Wrote: We understand Gods morality because we have a sense of ethical correctness which we apply selfishly. Humans can appreciate the reason for justice.

That would make Hitler and Stalin and every other monster of the world justified in their atrocities; they were all doing what they considered to be good works.

If you were as good at answering questions as you are dodging them, you'd win every debate ever.

(June 24, 2013 at 2:54 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:

(June 24, 2013 at 2:35 pm)sarcasticgeographer Wrote: Fr0d0: Look in Genesis 6:9 and you will read all about the genocidal wrath that your "benevolent" god possesses. Yet, for some reason, your "benevolent", moral god decides to save a drunken sailor's family. Yet, you claim that your god is moral. What a joke.

You need to understand what you're reading before you claim it says the opposite of what it does.

I understand and comprehend it very well. In your holy book, your god lost patience with his "children". So, your god's ONLY recourse was to annihilate humanity and save a drunken sailor. There is no logical conundrum here, your "benevolent" god annihilated humanity (except for an alcoholic sailor). A "sane" parent would never murder their children, because the parent lost patience with their children. Remember what I said, a sane parent. Clearly here, your immoral god went off the rocker. It never ceases to amaze me the lengths Christians will go to claim that their god is moral. Perfection, in my defintion, does not lose patience.