And you're right about how it is, knowing everything has a natural explanation but still believing its god. I knew and I still believed. But I had faith in the bible being god's written living word.
What do you believe in, really--fr0d0?

(July 6, 2013 at 5:55 pm)missluckie26 Wrote: Oh and Love? It is the most powerful thing on this earth that humans have the ability to do, and your creed doesn't hold the patent on it, sorry to burst your bubble. When it comes down to it, fr0d0: you know I'd die for you. You saw that thread. I'd die to save you and I'd die trying to save you. Which is saying a lot considering I don't believe I get anything but this life to live.

Yeh you know what love is. You experience it just like I do/or we both have the same potential to, given our natural propensities (maybe you have more potential than me).

What I'm talking about tho is what underpins our understanding. What undermines mine is a loving force. What undermines yours is neutral.

(July 6, 2013 at 4:33 pm)missluckie26 Wrote: There's that argument I was talking about. No one can say god didn't start it all. What makes you believe he did though?

fr0d0 Wrote:There shouldn't be proof to support faith, or it cannot be faith.

And faith is understanding that.

What makes me believe is reasoning. I cannot believe against my understanding.

Can't you see where your reasoning about your belief in your understanding of the untangible faith factor, is built on sand? Who says faith can't be built on proof (direct or indirect?)

(July 6, 2013 at 5:55 pm)missluckie26 Wrote: You also did not answer the question I posed in my last post, btw.

fr0d0 Wrote:You didn't give me time :p

Oh okay there's two questions, looking back.

I'm not neutral. How can it be if I love everyone?

(July 6, 2013 at 5:55 pm)missluckie26 Wrote: No fr0d0, you don't get it. We literally didn't ask anything. We just prayed that his will be done.

So you had no expectations and no disappointment that things didn't go the way you saw would be best.

Your whole point here was that nature seems to take it's course whatever, and why factor in God.

It rains equally on the righteous and unrighteous.

This is a fundamental truth of Christianity. The point is the positivity of the viewpoint. Not the material riches to be gained, but the life to be gained for yourself from that selflessness.

You maintain selflessness, which enriches your life. <--- this is the kind of reasoning I refer to that leads me to faith.

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(July 6, 2013 at 6:06 pm)missluckie26 Wrote: But I had faith in the bible being god's written living word.
What do you believe in, really--fr0d0?

I don't have faith in the bible. I don't believe it's infallible. I hope I'm not splitting hairs. Muslims believe the Quran to be the written word of Allah. Christians don't believe the bible to be the written word of God. We believe it to be inspired by God and revelation of his nature.
I have faith in God. My beliefs mirror those of the Salvation Army.

No, I figured god knew what was best and therefore I couldn't say I knew he was wrong. I gave him all the authority in my life .

We are talking about the same thing we did months ago when you told me I had perverted your beliefs through being too selfless. Giving everything you have to someone else in the name of god beCause they need it, is not selfless? What's your definition of selfless? Dying for you? Or is it just limited to dying for yet more intangible sins that you were inherited by being born?

I can be an atheist and still know what its like to go hungry or to not have proper shoes. And I can still feel compassion for those whom are going through that same thing. I can even extend that compassion to people who have experienced worse than me, and for those who have had it better than me. Cuz I'm human.

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Salvation Army Wrote:We believe that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were given by inspiration of God, and that they only constitute the Divine rule of Christian faith and practice.

We believe that there is only one God, who is infinitely perfect, the Creator, Preserver, and Governor of all things, and who is the only proper object of religious worship.

We believe that there are three persons in the Godhead - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, undivided in essence and co-equal in power and glory.

We believe that in the person of Jesus Christ the Divine and human natures are united, so that He is truly and properly God and truly and properly man.We believe that our first parents were created in a state of innocence, but by their disobedience, they lost their purity and happiness, and that in consequence of their fall, all men have become sinners, totally depraved, and as such are justly exposed to the wrath of God.

We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ has by His suffering and death made an atonement for the whole world so that whosoever will may be saved.

We believe that repentance toward God, faith in our Lord Jesus Christ and regeneration by the Holy Spirit are necessary to salvation.

We believe that we are justified by grace through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ and that he that believeth hath the witness in himself.

We believe that continuance in a state of salvation depends upon continued obedient faith in Christ.We believe that it is the privilege of all believers to be wholly sanctified, and that their whole spirit and soul and body may be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.We believe in the immortality of the soul, the resurrection of the body, in the general judgment at the end of the world, in the eternal happiness of the righteous, and in the endless punishment of the wicked.

I had to reread that first one a few times. I think it translates to the bible being fallible and that you only use it as a roadmap on how to live your life? That's why I have no qualms with you fr0d0.

So you do believe in the endless punishment of the wicked. I bet you think the punishment fits the crime, then? If so, what bible verses do you refer to for such reasoning (if that's your reasoning)?

See as a Christian I believed the bible was the living word of god. Meaning I could open it up and god could speak to my heart through it. I treated the bible like it was a piece of god. I also believed the bible was the infallible word of god because it says that it is.

I didn't say that you couldn't have compassion Missy.

Giving 'everything' to someone might be inappropriate and insensitive. Your generosity to me: saying you'd die for me, whilst endearing, might also be construed as a bit too much considering that you don't know me very well. It might display a weakness in yourself of being over trusting. It's not always loving to throw yourself away on people. To truly love (give love out) you have to be confident in your own love status. Does that make sense?

God dying for us gets rid of our problem of imperfection. We can face God like we're equal in innocence to him. We can have confidence to love ourselves without any reservations, and then give love. Hell yes this sacrifice is very important.

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(July 6, 2013 at 6:31 pm)missluckie26 Wrote: So you do believe in the endless punishment of the wicked. I bet you think the punishment fits the crime, then? If so, what bible verses do you refer to for such reasoning (if that's your reasoning)?

See as a Christian I believed the bible was the living word of god. Meaning I could open it up and god could speak to my heart through it. I treated the bible like it was a piece of god. I also believed the bible was the infallible word of god because it says that it is.

ugh horrible Victorian language lol

Well 'eternal' is a mistranslation I believe lol. It's not a matter of just desert, more accepting love. A state if mind that acknowledges the truth of positivity winning.

I take the bible as authoritative, and I trust it to be true. I understand it to be infallible, but don't close my mind to the possibility that it can't be improved upon.

(July 6, 2013 at 6:54 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: I didn't say that you couldn't have compassion Missy.

Giving 'everything' to someone might be inappropriate and insensitive. Your generosity to me: saying you'd die for me, whilst endearing, might also be construed as a bit too much considering that you don't know me very well. It might display a weakness in yourself of being over trusting. It's not always loving to throw yourself away on people. To truly love (give love out) you have to be confident in your own love status. Does that make sense?

I am overtrusting, everyone will tell you that. Even me. I had to learn there's a limit to how much of yourself to give and that limit is when it becomes detrimental to your everyday life. I still give too much. I know I do and I still do. Not because I value myself less than others or because I am a martyr. Plain and simply put: this world is a cold place. I like to warm it up because I feel like the repurcussions of doing so outweigh the price by far. Humanity as a whole is selfish, so I end up going the extreme opposite way just to balance things out a little. Still not a good reason, I know. But, without light how are we going to see where we are going?

fr0d0 Wrote:God dying for us gets rid of our problem of imperfection. We can face God like we're equal in innocence to him. We can have confidence to love ourselves without any reservations, and then give love. Hell yes this sacrifice is very important.

To whom or what is the sacrifice being made?

In order for there to be a winner, there must be a loser though fr0d0. In order for you to go to heaven for obeying, I must go to hell for disobeying. Eternally. Eternally is kind of a big deal, you know?

(July 6, 2013 at 6:31 pm)missluckie26 Wrote: So you do believe in the endless punishment of the wicked. I bet you think the punishment fits the crime, then? If so, what bible verses do you refer to for such reasoning (if that's your reasoning)?

See as a Christian I believed the bible was the living word of god. Meaning I could open it up and god could speak to my heart through it. I treated the bible like it was a piece of god. I also believed the bible was the infallible word of god because it says that it is.

fr0d0 Wrote:ugh horrible Victorian language lol

Well 'eternal' is a mistranslation I believe lol. It's not a matter of just desert, more accepting love. A state if mind that acknowledges the truth of positivity winning.

I take the bible as authoritative, and I trust it to be true. I understand it to be infallible, but don't close my mind to the possibility that it can't be improved upon.

So if someone comes forth claiming to be God's representative, and can perform 'miracles', you will welcome him with open arms?

(July 6, 2013 at 7:33 pm)missluckie26 Wrote:

(July 6, 2013 at 6:54 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: I didn't say that you couldn't have compassion Missy.

Giving 'everything' to someone might be inappropriate and insensitive. Your generosity to me: saying you'd die for me, whilst endearing, might also be construed as a bit too much considering that you don't know me very well. It might display a weakness in yourself of being over trusting. It's not always loving to throw yourself away on people. To truly love (give love out) you have to be confident in your own love status. Does that make sense?

I am overtrusting, everyone will tell you that. Even me. I had to learn there's a limit to how much of yourself to give and that limit is when it becomes detrimental to your everyday life. I still give too much. I know I do and I still do. Not because I value myself less than others or because I am a martyr. Plain and simply put: this world is a cold place. I like to warm it up because I feel like the repurcussions of doing so outweigh the price by far. Humanity as a whole is selfish, so I end up going the extreme opposite way just to balance things out a little. Still not a good reason, I know. But, without light how are we going to see where we are going?

Yah so the over trusting is an illogical step. This is what my faith gives me: why that step is logical. You seem to concur

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(July 6, 2013 at 7:33 pm)missluckie26 Wrote:

fr0d0 Wrote:God dying for us gets rid of our problem of imperfection. We can face God like we're equal in innocence to him. We can have confidence to love ourselves without any reservations, and then give love. Hell yes this sacrifice is very important.

To whom or what is the sacrifice being made?

In order for there to be a winner, there must be a loser though fr0d0. In order for you to go to heaven for obeying, I must go to hell for disobeying. Eternally. Eternally is kind of a big deal, you know?

The sacrifice is to God on man's behalf.

You go against love as long as you rationalise hate to be your best course of action. We're all somewhere along that path. Love is life, hate is death.

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(July 6, 2013 at 7:33 pm)missluckie26 Wrote:

fr0d0 Wrote:I take the bible as authoritative, and I trust it to be true. I understand it to be infallible, but don't close my mind to the possibility that it can't be improved upon.

So if someone comes forth claiming to be God's representative, and can perform 'miracles', you will welcome him with open arms?

If he satisfies testing of course!

Miracles and saint hood are over rated

I hate no one. I hate what people do. I don't actually hate them for doing it. I'm even fine with there being no punishing recompense in an afterlife, too. How am I a hater, exactly? You reap what you sow, right? I reap love.

What's that saying?
"Only a sith deals in absolutes".
If I'm not for god I'm against him. Ronedrrr even said it word for word, "if they're not for us they're against us!"
Its that fear of someone being against what you stand for that leads to anger. Anger leads to hatred. And hatred leads to the dark side, right?

I beg the question again, why must I go to hell for disobeying so that others can go to heaven for ob eying? What do you mean by "Love is life, hate is death"?

Also your quote about the logicality of trust does not compute. Can you rephrase for me?

fr0d0 Wrote:The sacrifice is to God on man's behalf.

If god is god , why does he require such a sacrifice to himself? Why not just absolve mankind for doing what he created them to do? The bible has a story about Job where he lets satan test Job with everything but his life. Why was there a bet in the first place on when/if Job would break, if god knows what will happen? That would mean he didn't know what would happen. If he doesn't know what will happen then maybe he doesn't know everything. Wouldnt the creator of everything, know everything? If not, then why would he say he is the alpha and the omega? Mind you I don't require answers to these questions, I'd appreciate your thoughts though.

(July 6, 2013 at 7:33 pm)missluckie26 Wrote: So if someone comes forth claiming to be God's representative, and can perform 'miracles', you will welcome him with open arms?

fr0d0 Wrote:If he satisfies testing of course!

Miracles and saint hood are over rated

Well, anti christ.
Just sayin

(July 6, 2013 at 8:08 pm)missluckie26 Wrote: I hate no one. I hate what people do. I don't actually hate them for doing it. I'm even fine with there being no punishing recompense in an afterlife, too. How am I a hater, exactly? You reap what you sow, right? I reap love.

I wasn't saying you hated. I was saying that's what hell is: The opposite of love. God is love. If you reject God you reject love. If you don't reject love then you don't reject God.
Are we there yet? :p

(July 6, 2013 at 8:08 pm)missluckie26 Wrote: Also your quote about the logicality of trust does not compute. Can you rephrase for me?

You we're saying that you didn't have a good reason to be over trusting. I'm saying I have a very good reason to be over trusting > I rationalise reality to be ultimately positive, because of my faith > It enhances my life to act that way.

(July 6, 2013 at 8:08 pm)missluckie26 Wrote:

fr0d0 Wrote:The sacrifice is to God on man's behalf.

If god is god , why does he require such a sacrifice to himself? Why not just absolve mankind for doing what he created them to do? The bible has a story about Job where he lets satan test Job with everything but his life. Why was there a bet in the first place on when/if Job would break, if god knows what will happen? That would mean he didn't know what would happen. If he doesn't know what will happen then maybe he doesn't know everything. Wouldnt the creator of everything, know everything? If not, then why would he say he is the alpha and the omega? Mind you I don't require answers to these questions, I'd appreciate your thoughts though.

God did just absolve mankind of doing what he was created to do! You just have to take the gift. He didn't remove your brain/ your ability to choose love/your humanity.

Why is the bible written in linear time (our language) when God is obviously non linear (the alpha and omega). Say no more!

(July 6, 2013 at 8:08 pm)missluckie26 Wrote: Well, anti christ.
Just sayin

You tricking me Missy C!