Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: December 5, 2024, 3:37 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism
RE: Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism
(July 22, 2013 at 4:54 am)Undeceived Wrote:
(July 22, 2013 at 4:38 am)pocaracas Wrote: If, for some reason, you find yourself in the need of help from a stranger, you'd want that stranger to help you, even if there's no immediate gain for that stranger... would you not?
Golden rule.

So you help others to foster a culture in which people are more likely to help you?
It is a logical reason to help others, is it not?
Reply
RE: Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism
(July 22, 2013 at 4:54 am)Undeceived Wrote: So you help others to foster a culture in which people are more likely to help you?

It's simply the reality: we're a social species, we rely on one another to survive. If we didn't co-operate, we wouldn't have the society we have now which allows us to live longer and more fulfilled lives. We're built from the ground up for this.

But let's flip the script: are you telling us that you can't envision a reason to help people beyond that god wants you to? You're that morally bankrupt a person?
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee

Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!
Reply
RE: Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism
(July 22, 2013 at 8:58 am)Esquilax Wrote:
(July 22, 2013 at 4:54 am)Undeceived Wrote: So you help others to foster a culture in which people are more likely to help you?

It's simply the reality: we're a social species, we rely on one another to survive. If we didn't co-operate, we wouldn't have the society we have now which allows us to live longer and more fulfilled lives. We're built from the ground up for this.

But let's flip the script: are you telling us that you can't envision a reason to help people beyond that god wants you to? You're that morally bankrupt a person?

If there is no God, the only reason to help people is if the action --in some way, at some point-- serves me. How is that moral?
Reply
RE: Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism
(July 22, 2013 at 1:06 pm)Undeceived Wrote: If there is no God, the only reason to help people is if the action --in some way, at some point-- serves me. How is that moral?

I find that most religions appeal to this part of our nature as well, offering a (very desirable) reward for following certain rules of behavior and offering a (terrifyingly horrible) punishment for refusing to follow those rules.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."

-Stephen Jay Gould
Reply
RE: Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism
(July 22, 2013 at 1:06 pm)Undeceived Wrote:
(July 22, 2013 at 8:58 am)Esquilax Wrote: It's simply the reality: we're a social species, we rely on one another to survive. If we didn't co-operate, we wouldn't have the society we have now which allows us to live longer and more fulfilled lives. We're built from the ground up for this.

But let's flip the script: are you telling us that you can't envision a reason to help people beyond that god wants you to? You're that morally bankrupt a person?

If there is no God, the only reason to help people is if the action --in some way, at some point-- serves me. How is that moral?

A belief in the Atonement and Resurrection of Christ is still self-serving, for it gets you to Candy Mountain, and all the nay-sayers go to Mordor.
Reply
RE: Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism
(July 22, 2013 at 1:06 pm)Undeceived Wrote: If there is no God, the only reason to help people is if the action --in some way, at some point-- serves me. How is that moral?

Why wouldn't it be moral?
Reply
RE: Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism
(July 22, 2013 at 1:06 pm)Undeceived Wrote: If there is no God, the only reason to help people is if the action --in some way, at some point-- serves me. How is that moral?

But aren't you only doing good to show your god how devoted you are and how much you love him?

In other words, you do good only because it does serve you.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
Reply
RE: Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism
(July 21, 2013 at 4:42 pm)Chas Wrote:
(July 21, 2013 at 4:03 pm)BettyG Wrote: Not true. Good deeds are a response to faith. We do them, not just because God commanded us to or that God will reward them, but because we are grateful for what God has done. Doing charitable works helps us to grow in virtue. One cannot say one is kind unless one does kind acts. Same for patience, prudence, justice, etc. You really can't say you have faith in God and then not do what He commanded.

Yes, but I'm an atheist and do good deeds. No gods are required.
I'm glad. I think it is easier to love others when one's heart is overflowing with God's love and joy.
Reply
RE: Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism
(July 22, 2013 at 9:07 pm)BettyG Wrote:
(July 21, 2013 at 4:42 pm)Chas Wrote: Yes, but I'm an atheist and do good deeds. No gods are required.
I'm glad. I think it is easier to love others when one's heart is overflowing with God's love and joy.

If you need something to make it easier for you, then ok, i'm glad you have that something.

I don't need it, I wouldn't assume that others need it, if you weren't implying this, then I apologize, but if you were, then please don't.
Reply
RE: Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism
(July 22, 2013 at 2:11 pm)Faith No More Wrote:
(July 22, 2013 at 1:06 pm)Undeceived Wrote: If there is no God, the only reason to help people is if the action --in some way, at some point-- serves me. How is that moral?

But aren't you only doing good to show your god how devoted you are and how much you love him?

In other words, you do good only because it does serve you.

This is where you seem to go off track with Christians, we do not do it for ourselves, we do things for others because they are in need and thus it's a witness for God. It shows how He's at work in our lives, we help others with selflessness, we expect nothing in return.... hopefully most of the time we're human after all. We are to imitate Christ's walk on earth, serving others selflessly.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Three in five British adults say miracles are possible zebo-the-fat 15 2425 September 30, 2018 at 2:32 pm
Last Post: Pat Mustard
  Miracles in Christianity - how to answer KiwiNFLFan 89 21323 December 24, 2017 at 3:16 am
Last Post: Nay_Sayer
  Satan, anti-christ, false prophet vorlon13 43 9702 November 14, 2017 at 12:06 pm
Last Post: Harry Nevis
  How does "Science prove that the miracles of the Bible did not happen" ? Emzap 62 13515 November 4, 2016 at 2:05 am
Last Post: dyresand
  Question for the anti's.......? ronedee 57 7515 March 12, 2016 at 2:54 pm
Last Post: Nihilist Virus
  Is Christianity responsible for anti gay bigotry? 1994Californication 35 8583 March 12, 2016 at 7:48 am
Last Post: Panatheist
  Anti-christ? wolfclan96 225 40867 August 20, 2015 at 3:50 pm
Last Post: Redbeard The Pink
  Jesus' imperfect miracles. Brakeman 32 7952 June 25, 2015 at 4:29 pm
Last Post: robvalue
  An Anti-Gay Preacher In My Hometown Was Busted On Grindr Faith No More 50 15926 May 25, 2015 at 8:55 pm
Last Post: Cyberman
Rainbow Bloody miracles from a bloody cult. Bob Kelso 22 5432 March 26, 2015 at 11:24 am
Last Post: KevinM1



Users browsing this thread: 9 Guest(s)