Sorry I should of clarified. In the bible when you die it says you go to heaven.

The Heaven used in the Quran isnt the place where one goes to die. That is Jannah or Paradise.


assamaa' [السّماء] is the singular form of the word samaawaat [السّموت]. The latter is a plural, used to refer to the 'heavens', or the 'saba'a samawaat' (the seven heavens). The former means basically what is high/above, and is attributed to 'everything above', it's a generic term that includes everything in one category.
Hence, the singular term actually encompasses more than the plural, by virtue of including 'everything above' under one term, rather than meaning only the heavens. So the 'arsh cannot be included in samawaat, but is included in assamaa'. assamaa' is limited only when used in conjunction to another word (such as assamaa'-ad-dunya - meaning the 'sky of the world', but not anything beyond this).

In the ayah of 51:47, no restriction is placed on the term samaa', it is used without conjunction that imposes a limit. Hence, it means 'everything above', including the whole universe.

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(August 7, 2013 at 5:49 pm)pineapplebunnybounce Wrote:

(August 7, 2013 at 5:36 pm)ThatMuslimGuy2 Wrote: Did you even read my previous post?

Common Contention 1

A common contention to the “Expanding Universe” in the Qur’an is to quote three popular translations – Yusuf Ali, Pickthall and Shakir- and say these only translated it as that God made the Heavens Vast. The Translations read:
Yusuf Ali:
[051:047] With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.
Pickthall:
[051:047] We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
Shakir:
[051:047] And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.

Although an honest contention – one I held until looking further into the topic- it is misplaced for the following reasons:

The Qur’an can never be translated 100% perfectly. Especially into English due to the vast differences in the Language. Each translation is a translators attempt to put across the meaning of the Quranic words used.
Naturally this can contain errors.
Or translations that do not fully grasp the language.
Also one word may have multiple meanings and it is hard to translate all the possible meanings encompassed in a word so a translator may discard some meanings.

That is a cop out. You cannot be a god and then reserve your book for only one group of people on earth.

Quote:1. To encompass the heavens (Physically, Knowledge, Authority). This means that god encompasses it with his power and that he knows everything through his knowledge and has authority over it.
2. To provide for his creation. One who provides for his creation from the heavens. So physically, like the rain that comes down from the heavens. Or spiritually.
3. To physically expand. Meaning to continuously expand something or to make something vaster.
4. To be rich.

So really, you only landed on "physically expand" AFTER we discovered the universe is expanding.

This kind of "multiple" meaning problems appear in old languages sometimes, especially when people are intentionally unclear about what they're talking about, that's not an excuse. That's an excuse for ancient people time travelling to present time.

Do you realize that you're asking people to believe a group of people who cannot properly express their ideas received revelation from some angel, based on what they wrote down? When we've established that the text cannot properly articulate these ideas to begin with?

I think you missed my point. When Allah said musioona in the Quran. I understand it to mean all those 4 meanings. Allah could of used a word to just pick one of them meanings but he chose a word that encompasses them all. Allah hu Akbar.

(August 7, 2013 at 5:36 pm)ThatMuslimGuy2 Wrote: Also one word may have multiple meanings and it is hard to translate all the possible meanings encompassed in a word so a translator may discard some meanings.

Then what makes your interpretation any more valid than all the others?

(Cue special pleading in 3... 2... 1...)

Also one word may have multiple meanings and it is hard to translate all the possible meanings encompassed in a word so a translator may discard some meanings.

Then what makes your interpretation any more valid than all the others?

(Cue special pleading in 3... 2... 1...)

Ive listed the meanings if the arabic:
1. To encompass the heavens (Physically, Knowledge, Authority). This means that god encompasses it with his power and that he knows everything through his knowledge and has authority over it.
2. To provide for his creation. One who provides for his creation from the heavens. So physically, like the rain that comes down from the heavens. Or spiritually.
3. To physically expand. Meaning to continuously expand something or to make something vaster.
4. To be rich.

All these meanings are valid.

If I were to translate the verse it would be:

And the heavens/universe We constructed/built with strength/power, and We encompass it, Provide from it, are expanding it and are rich and powerful.

Let's clarify something.

When a word like that is used in anywhere outside of the qur'an, is it meant to mean 1 of the 4 meanings or all of the 4 meanings?

BTW, you haven't responded to my earlier post saying that even if all this is true, doesn't prove god.

(August 7, 2013 at 6:10 pm)ThatMuslimGuy2 Wrote: Ive listed the meanings if the arabic:
1. To encompass the heavens (Physically, Knowledge, Authority). This means that god encompasses it with his power and that he knows everything through his knowledge and has authority over it.
2. To provide for his creation. One who provides for his creation from the heavens. So physically, like the rain that comes down from the heavens. Or spiritually.
3. To physically expand. Meaning to continuously expand something or to make something vaster.
4. To be rich.

All these meanings are valid.

If I were to translate the verse it would be:

And the heavens/universe We constructed/built with strength/power, and We encompass it, Provide from it, are expanding it and are rich and powerful.

That's not what I asked. Since there can be - must be - multiple meanings of the words, what makes your chosen interpretation any more valid than all the others? Remember that you're trying to establish the veracity of your book's authority here.

Let's clarify something.

When a word like that is used in anywhere outside of the qur'an, is it meant to mean 1 of the 4 meanings or all of the 4 meanings?

BTW, you haven't responded to my earlier post saying that even if all this is true, doesn't prove god.

The use of the word depends on context. For expample if I wanted to say someone is rich I cud say they are musi'.

So outside it could mean all or only 1.

The Qurans context allows for all the 4 interpretations. As the scholars express in there tafsirs.

My standpointvis this. To say that the statements in the Quran , unknown in the 7th century, are a coincidence or mere chance would be irrational and illogical. The best explanation is that God revealed this knowledge to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). If I provided 10-20+ similar statements its illogical to thimk they were lucky guesses.

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That's not what I asked. Since there can be - must be - multiple meanings of the words, what makes your chosen interpretation any more valid than all the others? Remember that you're trying to establish the veracity of your book's authority here.

There all valid. The verse to say Allah is expanding the universe is valid. The verse to Say Allah encompasses the Universe with his knowledge is valid. The verse to Allah provides is valid. The verse to say Allah is Rich and powerful is valid.

So we've got either pure chance and coincidence, or else it's god-given?

False dichotomy.

(August 7, 2013 at 6:44 pm)ThatMuslimGuy2 Wrote: There all valid. The verse to say Allah is expanding the universe is valid. The verse to Say Allah encompasses the Universe with his knowledge is valid. The verse to Allah provides is valid. The verse to say Allah is Rich and powerful is valid.

Then all the interpretations/translations that say the exact opposite must also be valid. By what metric do we choose one over another, or do we get to throw the whole mess into the bin and start over?

(August 7, 2013 at 5:53 pm)ThatMuslimGuy2 Wrote: Sorry I should of clarified. In the bible when you die it says you go to heaven.

The Heaven used in the Quran isnt the place where one goes to die. That is Jannah or Paradise.


assamaa' [السّماء] is the singular form of the word samaawaat [السّموت]. The latter is a plural, used to refer to the 'heavens', or the 'saba'a samawaat' (the seven heavens). The former means basically what is high/above, and is attributed to 'everything above', it's a generic term that includes everything in one category.
Hence, the singular term actually encompasses more than the plural, by virtue of including 'everything above' under one term, rather than meaning only the heavens. So the 'arsh cannot be included in samawaat, but is included in assamaa'. assamaa' is limited only when used in conjunction to another word (such as assamaa'-ad-dunya - meaning the 'sky of the world', but not anything beyond this).

In the ayah of 51:47, no restriction is placed on the term samaa', it is used without conjunction that imposes a limit. Hence, it means 'everything above', including the whole universe.

Ah, so... At that time, this heaven thing was understood as what is above the sky, above the clouds, right?

This would match pretty well with the firmament understanding of outer space that people had at that time.
Maybe... the people who wrote it meant that, but, as time passes, the meaning of the word grew to encompass those other notions.

It's like the word "assumption".
"Word story
The word assumption is a great example of how a word can take on new dimensions of meaning over time, while staying true to some aspect of its original sense.
assumption has been in the language since the 13th century, and was initially confined to a specific ecclesiastical meaning in the Catholic Church. The Latin word on which it is based literally means “the action of being taken up or received,” and in English assumption referred to the taking up into heaven of the Virgin Mary. That meaning still exists today, and in all the meanings it has assumed since then, one can see the common thread running through them is the sense of taking.
One early sense meant “arrogance,” as in this 1814 quote from Sir Walter Scott: “his usual air of haughty assumption.” Arrogance is a taking upon oneself a conviction of self-importance. Later senses arose having to do with the taking on of power or other responsibilities, as in “the assumption of command.”
Probably the most common meaning of assumption in use today is for indicating a supposition, an estimate, a conjecture—that is, something taken for granted. And as any schoolkid knows, presuming to assume can be dangerous, leading us to make, as the saying goes, “an ASS of U and ME!” "
in
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/assumption?s=t

So, can we get a similar etymology for that word that means heaven in arabic, but not the same heaven that the latin world came to use.

Speaking of latin... the word used for heaven, in (at least) most latin descendent countries, is the exact same word that is used for sky.
spanish: cielo
portuguese: céu
italian: cielo
french: ciel
romanian: cer

Clearly, today, sky and heaven are two very distinct concepts. However, 2000 years ago they meant pretty much the same.
Being the arabic language a descendent of aramaic/hebrew, and given the proximity that existed (at the time) between the romans with their latin and the palestinians/israelis with their aramaic, it would make sense if the original concept of heaven in both languages was included in the word for sky.
Then the evolution of the language brings forth some new meanings... and some of them are what you expose here. Or can you tell me that this word already had these multiple meanings 1400 years ago?

Forgive me for going into so much detail over one single word... but it seems to be the key word for this whole argument.
You interpret "assamaa'" as the Universe.... when all it meant was probably the sky, or the paradise, or some inner soul space, like nirvana...

Stimbo. Its simple. Musioona can have 4 meanings. One of them is expanding. Thus the Quran states the Universe is expanding.

Along with three other meanings. That's three against your one.