The Quran - A Miracle

[ThatMuslimGuy2]

Sorry I should of clarified. In the bible when you die it says you go to heaven.

The Heaven used in the Quran isnt the place where one goes to die. That is Jannah or Paradise.


assamaa' [السّماء] is the singular form of the word samaawaat [السّموت]. The latter is a plural, used to refer to the 'heavens', or the 'saba'a samawaat' (the seven heavens). The former means basically what is high/above, and is attributed to 'everything above', it's a generic term that includes everything in one category.
Hence, the singular term actually encompasses more than the plural, by virtue of including 'everything above' under one term, rather than meaning only the heavens. So the 'arsh cannot be included in samawaat, but is included in assamaa'. assamaa' is limited only when used in conjunction to another word (such as assamaa'-ad-dunya - meaning the 'sky of the world', but not anything beyond this).

In the ayah of 51:47, no restriction is placed on the term samaa', it is used without conjunction that imposes a limit. Hence, it means 'everything above', including the whole universe.

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Did you even read my previous post?

Common Contention 1

A common contention to the “Expanding Universe” in the Qur’an is to quote three popular translations – Yusuf Ali, Pickthall and Shakir- and say these only translated it as that God made the Heavens Vast. The Translations read:
Yusuf Ali:
[051:047] With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.
Pickthall:
[051:047] We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
Shakir:
[051:047] And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.

Although an honest contention – one I held until looking further into the topic- it is misplaced for the following reasons:

The Qur’an can never be translated 100% perfectly. Especially into English due to the vast differences in the Language. Each translation is a translators attempt to put across the meaning of the Quranic words used.
Naturally this can contain errors.
Or translations that do not fully grasp the language.
Also one word may have multiple meanings and it is hard to translate all the possible meanings encompassed in a word so a translator may discard some meanings.

That is a cop out. You cannot be a god and then reserve your book for only one group of people on earth.

1. To encompass the heavens (Physically, Knowledge, Authority). This means that god encompasses it with his power and that he knows everything through his knowledge and has authority over it.
2. To provide for his creation. One who provides for his creation from the heavens. So physically, like the rain that comes down from the heavens. Or spiritually.
3. To physically expand. Meaning to continuously expand something or to make something vaster.
4. To be rich.

So really, you only landed on "physically expand" AFTER we discovered the universe is expanding.

This kind of "multiple" meaning problems appear in old languages sometimes, especially when people are intentionally unclear about what they're talking about, that's not an excuse. That's an excuse for ancient people time travelling to present time.

Do you realize that you're asking people to believe a group of people who cannot properly express their ideas received revelation from some angel, based on what they wrote down? When we've established that the text cannot properly articulate these ideas to begin with?

I think you missed my point. When Allah said musioona in the Quran. I understand it to mean all those 4 meanings. Allah could of used a word to just pick one of them meanings but he chose a word that encompasses them all. Allah hu Akbar.

[Cyberman]

Also one word may have multiple meanings and it is hard to translate all the possible meanings encompassed in a word so a translator may discard some meanings.

Then what makes your interpretation any more valid than all the others?

(Cue special pleading in 3... 2... 1...)

[ThatMuslimGuy2]

Also one word may have multiple meanings and it is hard to translate all the possible meanings encompassed in a word so a translator may discard some meanings.

Then what makes your interpretation any more valid than all the others?

(Cue special pleading in 3... 2... 1...)

Ive listed the meanings if the arabic:
1. To encompass the heavens (Physically, Knowledge, Authority). This means that god encompasses it with his power and that he knows everything through his knowledge and has authority over it.
2. To provide for his creation. One who provides for his creation from the heavens. So physically, like the rain that comes down from the heavens. Or spiritually.
3. To physically expand. Meaning to continuously expand something or to make something vaster.
4. To be rich.

All these meanings are valid.

If I were to translate the verse it would be:

And the heavens/universe We constructed/built with strength/power, and We encompass it, Provide from it, are expanding it and are rich and powerful.

[pineapplebunnybounce]

Let's clarify something.

When a word like that is used in anywhere outside of the qur'an, is it meant to mean 1 of the 4 meanings or all of the 4 meanings?

BTW, you haven't responded to my earlier post saying that even if all this is true, doesn't prove god.

[Cyberman]

Ive listed the meanings if the arabic:
1. To encompass the heavens (Physically, Knowledge, Authority). This means that god encompasses it with his power and that he knows everything through his knowledge and has authority over it.
2. To provide for his creation. One who provides for his creation from the heavens. So physically, like the rain that comes down from the heavens. Or spiritually.
3. To physically expand. Meaning to continuously expand something or to make something vaster.
4. To be rich.

All these meanings are valid.

If I were to translate the verse it would be:

And the heavens/universe We constructed/built with strength/power, and We encompass it, Provide from it, are expanding it and are rich and powerful.

That's not what I asked. Since there can be - must be - multiple meanings of the words, what makes your chosen interpretation any more valid than all the others? Remember that you're trying to establish the veracity of your book's authority here.

[ThatMuslimGuy2]

Let's clarify something.

When a word like that is used in anywhere outside of the qur'an, is it meant to mean 1 of the 4 meanings or all of the 4 meanings?

BTW, you haven't responded to my earlier post saying that even if all this is true, doesn't prove god.

The use of the word depends on context. For expample if I wanted to say someone is rich I cud say they are musi'.

So outside it could mean all or only 1.

The Qurans context allows for all the 4 interpretations. As the scholars express in there tafsirs.

My standpointvis this. To say that the statements in the Quran , unknown in the 7th century, are a coincidence or mere chance would be irrational and illogical. The best explanation is that God revealed this knowledge to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). If I provided 10-20+ similar statements its illogical to thimk they were lucky guesses.

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That's not what I asked. Since there can be - must be - multiple meanings of the words, what makes your chosen interpretation any more valid than all the others? Remember that you're trying to establish the veracity of your book's authority here.

There all valid. The verse to say Allah is expanding the universe is valid. The verse to Say Allah encompasses the Universe with his knowledge is valid. The verse to Allah provides is valid. The verse to say Allah is Rich and powerful is valid.

[Cyberman]

So we've got either pure chance and coincidence, or else it's god-given?

False dichotomy.

There all valid. The verse to say Allah is expanding the universe is valid. The verse to Say Allah encompasses the Universe with his knowledge is valid. The verse to Allah provides is valid. The verse to say Allah is Rich and powerful is valid.

Then all the interpretations/translations that say the exact opposite must also be valid. By what metric do we choose one over another, or do we get to throw the whole mess into the bin and start over?

[pocaracas]

[ThatMuslimGuy2]

Stimbo. Its simple. Musioona can have 4 meanings. One of them is expanding. Thus the Quran states the Universe is expanding.

[Cyberman]

Along with three other meanings. That's three against your one.