(August 15, 2013 at 11:53 am)smax Wrote: In fantasy, however, here on Earth, which happens to be dominated by human beings for the time being, God wants:

Humans to enjoy hundreds of virgins
Experience indescribable bliss
Own our own planets
Become celestial beings
Live in a mansion with him

And thousands of other things that we've committed him to through our yet to be verified communications with him.

Indeed; but it's vital to remember this whole religion thing is a monstrous pyramid scheme. "God" (or the god du jour) only wants those things for the people at the top of the pyramid - everyone else never quite gets there, however hard they try or devout they are, and they're the wicked ones whom "God" despises for all sorts of ad hoc reasons.

(August 15, 2013 at 12:25 am)ronedee Wrote: Thanks again for everyone putting in their two cents on this question.

I read every post, and wish I could answer all. But I just don't have the time lately. I've been very busy. And somewhat scatter brained, as some here would gleefully agree! I did enjoy reading most of your posts! Very entertaining!

Anyhoo... What I got for answers, and a general consensus is the following according to popularity:

1. the Christian (and possibly other) God is not a welcome vehicle.
2. God's lack of involvement in our lives.
3. a curiosity about just what God is/does/did etc.
4. a disdain for any idea of a deity.

I'll start with the least and work up....

4. Personally, I think that anyone who has a negative view of any idea a deity exists, has a problem. I'm not saying that they are beyond changing their attitudes... but I don't see much hope. And it's usually in a sarcastic, immature manner which is hard to reason with, or even converse most times.

3. Here is common ground! Curiosity is human nature: We all want to know! Obviously there are many, MANY things we don't know. And God would theoretically have all the answers. I really enjoy exploring this realm with most of you. I've had some very intelligent and stimulating conversations with 3 or four of you, and its appreciated!

2. I think we could "all" agree here sometimes too! But, here's where our (Christian) faith comes into play. And also where the divide starts to widen. Two or 3 of you have expressed being neutral on God's involvement, "if he exists". But questions do rise about "why" all the pain, suffering, blood and tears. And honestly... we as Christians would be fools to say we know "completely" why. But, there are very many things in our power [as humans] to actually change ourselves. Sans the OT God, most of modern-day problems can be attributed to us! A lot of good could happen, if we united to do just that.

1. Ok.... Here's where the ax falls! The major complaint from most is Christianity. But, is it Jesus? Or, is it the religion that evolved around Him?

I didn't hear a negative about Jesus himself. I'll be the first to agree that the Catholic religion has, and will probably always have problems. But, what organization doesn't? That's not an excuse! Unfortunately, Catholics and Christian religion draws many troubled people. But the double edged sword is that we are also trying to help them as followers of Christ! Believe me, I wish Jesus could send a blessing of healing and peace to these people. I pray and hope that He will.

This then gets to the reasons we are followers of Christ. LOVE. I won't preach to you here, but let me just say that we as people have the power to help and love each other. And probably (over time) eradicate every disease, ailment and problem known to man! But, we will never conquer Death, or sin! Jesus did that for us! And that my friends is the basis of our Christian faith.

Thanks, this was a fun thread! Keep it comin'. R

I must admit that I am always surprised at the free ride that Jesus gets as well.

I cannot tell you how disappointed I was in the story of him that I got from mark's gospel.

I have said before that for me it was a case of #messiahfail.

I think it is just that I would expect my messiah to have a higher moral standard than I do and I did not see that in the gospel.

(August 15, 2013 at 12:27 am)Undeceived Wrote:

(August 15, 2013 at 12:13 am)Thor Wrote: My point exactly!

Either you believe in infinity or you believe in an uncaused cause. Which one do you stand behind?

I believe in evidence-based explanations. "God" falls well outside that.

(August 15, 2013 at 12:25 am)ronedee Wrote: I didn't hear a negative about Jesus himself. I'll be the first to agree that the Catholic religion has, and will probably always have problems. But, what organization doesn't? That's not an excuse! Unfortunately, Catholics and Christian religion draws many troubled people. But the double edged sword is that we are also trying to help them as followers of Christ! Believe me, I wish Jesus could send a blessing of healing and peace to these people. I pray and hope that He will.

Hey, a man speaking against the estabishment cut down in his prime by haters and government flunkies...what's not to like in that story?

Actual Christianity might have wound up having more in common with Jainism than Islam if it hadn't been turned into Paulianity. If not for Paul, maybe Christians would still take the most original moral teaching of the Gospels, turning the other cheek, seriously.

But not having much of a problem with Jesus has nothing to do with whether he was divine.

Look at it this way. If you said you worshiped Angra Mainyu, we might say 'Why are you worshiping Anra Mainyu? There's no good evidence that he's real, and even if he were real, he's evil!' If you said you worshiped the good god Spenta Mainyu, we'd just say 'Why are you worshiping Spenta Mainyu? There's no good evidence that he's real.'

Any irritation we may have with Christians or Christianity doesn't bear on our probability evaluation of a proposed supernatural being. Any more than it has a bearing on your probability evaluation of Zorastrian divine beings being real. If more Christians tried to live up to the best moral teachings of Jesus (Quakers seem to make a sincere effort, as a rule), we wouldn't consider the supernatural claims of Christians more likely to be true. We'd just get along with them better...and they'd get along with us better.

That said, kinder Christians would create fewer atheists, because failing in morality is sometimes the first crack in the edifice that starts a Christian on questioning their faith. It's not that the 'you had a bad experience with Christians scenario' is NEVER the case...it's just that even when it is, the deconversion story only starts there. If it ends with the person becoming a rationalist, it's too late to get them back by fixing the booboo. If it ends with them being some kind of New Age thing, they might still be a viable target for that method of reconversion.

(August 15, 2013 at 12:10 pm)Stimbo Wrote:

(August 15, 2013 at 11:53 am)smax Wrote: In fantasy, however, here on Earth, which happens to be dominated by human beings for the time being, God wants:

Humans to enjoy hundreds of virgins
Experience indescribable bliss
Own our own planets
Become celestial beings
Live in a mansion with him

And thousands of other things that we've committed him to through our yet to be verified communications with him.

Indeed; but it's vital to remember this whole religion thing is a monstrous pyramid scheme. "God" (or the god du jour) only wants those things for the people at the top of the pyramid - everyone else never quite gets there, however hard they try or devout they are, and they're the wicked ones whom "God" despises for all sorts of ad hoc reasons.

God, if there were one, would have to transcend humanity and it's petty interests by an unspeakable measure, and yet we are so limited that we can't help but invent him with those very petty interests as his sole purpose for being.

LOL.

The pet rock made some a millionaire. Is that really such a surprise?

(August 15, 2013 at 11:43 am)Mister Agenda Wrote:

(August 14, 2013 at 10:05 pm)Drich Wrote: lol no you weren't. You were born into a version of a made made religion who took the title of Christianity. Biblical Christianity is a personal choice we all must make apart from what religion we were born into.

And you don't think your kids would have even a slight unfair advantage when it comes to becoming biblical Christians compared to, say, the children of an Imam of the Taliban?

---

(August 15, 2013 at 12:50 am)Undeceived Wrote: Your third option is to not pick an option? You have just blown my mind.

Someone admitting they honestly don't know which of two options is actually the case can have that effect on some people.

Being born into a religion especially several generations in almost alway results in failure when it comes to worshiping God. It happened with the Jews repeatedly hence the need for the Judges found in judges one and book two.

This is also found to be true in Christianity. This era was known as the dark ages. These dark times happen when people focus on worshiping on the method of worship rather than God Himself. Another example can be found in most of the members here. As most of you started out in a church of some kind as as you spiritually matured you saw the flaws in your religions, and left God because you assumed that God was completely represented by what you started out believing. Which is good for a young child but not so good it seems if/when you grow.

Even if the deeply religious stay in the church they tend to be the empty angry, and disconnected you all like to rail about. In short religion is a tool, like a hammer. In the right hands with the right intention it can be used (in part) to build a house. But, in the wrong hands with the wrong intentions that same hammer can be used to tear a house down.

Being born into a religion can be a blessing or it can be a curse. It depends on the person.

@Drich, you seem to think that atheists are atheists because we think god is evil. But actually it's because we don't think gods exist.

You mind answering Mister Agenda's question about chances of becoming a Christian? I'm interested in your viewpoint.

(August 15, 2013 at 9:33 pm)Drich Wrote: Being born into a religion especially several generations in almost alway results in failure when it comes to worshiping God. It happened with the Jews repeatedly hence the need for the Judges found in judges one and book two.

This is also found to be true in Christianity. This era was known as the dark ages. These dark times happen when people focus on worshiping on the method of worship rather than God Himself.

I'm glad you're here to school us all on how the Dark Ages actually happened. Whew, and we were thinking it was because of the suppression of intellectual discussion and thought by power hungry papalcies!

Quote:Another example can be found in most of the members here. As most of you started out in a church of some kind as as you spiritually matured you saw the flaws in your religions, and left God because you assumed that God was completely represented by what you started out believing. Which is good for a young child but not so good it seems if/when you grow.

Too bad Drich wasn't around to show us that we were actually just believing the wrong way. All hail Drich, the Chosen One!

Quote:Even if the deeply religious stay in the church they tend to be the empty angry, and disconnected you all like to rail about. In short religion is a tool, like a hammer. In the right hands with the right intention it can be used (in part) to build a house. But, in the wrong hands with the wrong intentions that same hammer can be used to tear a house down.

Please tell us what can be accomplished in ANY religion that demonstrably cannot be done in another.

Quote:Being born into a religion can be a blessing or it can be a curse. It depends on the person.

As there are no such things as either a blessing or a curse, there must be third option. (And it's actually the only option.) How about happenstance?

(August 15, 2013 at 9:33 pm)Drich Wrote: Another example can be found in most of the members here. As most of you started out in a church of some kind as as you spiritually matured you saw the flaws in your religions, and left God because you assumed that God was completely represented by what you started out believing. Which is good for a young child but not so good it seems if/when you grow.

I think most of us 'left' God because of a maturity of thought which made the entire idea behind God seem conceptually ridiculous. What your specific god represents and the behaviors attributed to him are quite beside the point. I know of no atheist who became an atheist after a cursory rejection of a single religion's claims. People who do that tend to simply find a religion with beliefs more in line with their expectations.

Even if your god's attributes were a perfect fit for what I think should be expected of a being with such power, without evidence that this god exists, I could not believe in it or worship it.