(August 18, 2013 at 5:43 am)EvidenceVersusFaith Wrote: Yes, despite the reality that the first one was awfully amobea seeming and non bird-seeming. It is indeed is quite peculiar.

The fact that you can trace the lineage from the chicken, back to the proto-chicken and keep going all way back to the first life form and come back up again, taking a different route and end up with an oak tree is also pretty awesome, to say the least.

Yes, proto-chicken cousin number *insert gargantuanly gigantic number here*: Oak tree.

(August 18, 2013 at 12:49 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: See, I love it when people who have no fucking clue what the fuck they're talking about try to pretend like they know what they're talking about.

HERETIC.

..."mounting evidence" of water on other planets? Oh, really.

You'd better start up your space probe, and get your divining rod out.... because, besides "trace amounts of vapor & gas" water only exists on earth.

And there is no "clear reasons" how or why:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_water_on_Earth

http://www.icr.org/earths-water/

(August 19, 2013 at 1:52 am)ronedee Wrote: ..."mounting evidence" of water on other planets? Oh, really.

You'd better start up your space probe, and get your divining rod out.... because, besides "trace amounts of vapor & gas" water only exists on earth.

And there is no "clear reasons" how or why:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_water_on_Earth

http://www.icr.org/earths-water/

So, first of all, you're a goddamned liar, because I posted a link to a water source feeding a black hole that was several orders of magnitude larger than the planet itself.

Second of all, even accepting your argument as true- which I don't, by the way, and we'll get to why in a moment- it's just one great big argument from ignorance: "I can't think of any other place where there's water, and therefore it's a miracle." Jumping the gun much?

And finally, just to wrap it up: You are wrong. Always, and forever. And don't just harp on the lack of confirmation, go and look at what the science actually shows.

And don't go to ICR for information, either; they're biased, and also not in any way a scientific organization.

Try again, skippy.

(August 19, 2013 at 1:52 am)ronedee Wrote: ..."mounting evidence" of water on other planets? Oh, really.

You'd better start up your space probe, and get your divining rod out.... because, besides "trace amounts of vapor & gas" water only exists on earth.

And there is no "clear reasons" how or why:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_water_on_Earth

http://www.icr.org/earths-water/

There is about 197,000 cubic miles of water inside north polar cap on Mars, frozen with possibility of water in liquid form underneath the ice, there is a huge amount of frozen CO2 mixed with it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_on_Mars

Looks like you guys convinced him

Quick question for ronedee:

Does always getting everything wrong become a little samey after a while?

Boru

I honestly don't think he even notices, Brian.

(August 19, 2013 at 1:52 am)ronedee Wrote:

(August 18, 2013 at 12:49 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: See, I love it when people who have no fucking clue what the fuck they're talking about try to pretend like they know what they're talking about.

HERETIC.

..."mounting evidence" of water on other planets? Oh, really.

You'd better start up your space probe, and get your divining rod out.... because, besides "trace amounts of vapor & gas" water only exists on earth.

And there is no "clear reasons" how or why:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_water_on_Earth

http://www.icr.org/earths-water/

I JUST FUCKING GAVE YOU A GOD-DAMNED LINK THAT SHOWS-

*deep breath.*

I just gave you a link that shows that utilizing a fuckton of scientific, technological instruments, they have a very, VERY good reason to believe that there are large amounts of water beneath several of the satellites orbiting various planets throughout the solar system, that a lot of the dwarf planets likely harbor liquid water under their ice crusts, and that there is extremely good evidence for water-flows on Mars itself. This isn't fucking rocket science, papist. It's quite reasonable to believe that on a planet that is almost entirely hydrogen, that underneath the ice covering it, oceans of liquid water will exist. There's this little thing called pressure, okay?

Ok, look, I gotta take a step back here...

Now, as an anti-theist, one could expect an onslaught of contemptuous diatribe from me for the absolute travesty you just posted. I mean... Seriously? You posted a source that by its very NAME is biased?! The catholic church doesn't fucking recognize creationism, dammit! Why the hell are you quoting it?! You know how many people work at the ICR? FOUR!! You know how many scientists state that evolution is a fact? ALL. THOUSANDS. Read THIS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_o...#Criticism I mean, SERIOUSLY! Do you genuinely expect we're gonna take something from an institute that is rejected by the entire damn scientific community seriously?! Are you mad?!

BUT. As a skeptic, a lover of scientific pursuits and inquiry, and a humanist, as WELL as an anti-theist, I feel it is very, very necessary to explain to you, in GREAT detail where the origins of water come from, and why it being located elsewhere in the solar system and the galaxy itself is really, really not that big a deal as you want to think it is. If you really have no interest in actually understanding this stuff, and you just want to cling to your own personal beliefs as opposed to well-known, scientifically-documented evidence (evidence that will always, without fail, trump your own in every single regard in the world, so you better get used to it immediately unless you never want to be considered more than someone to mock), then just ignore this, but if you REALLY want to understand why liquid water is NOT a miracle, read on, and I will enlighten you with some basic explanations that should be very readily understandable.

What causes the sun to be so supergoddamn-hot is the fact that there is a metric fuckton of pressure on it. The denser matter gets, the more mass it has, and mass generates gravity. If you wanna know why, you're gonna need to do some studying, something you clearly have been not doing if you're really arguing with me on this shit, but the long and short of it is that higher masses cause gravitational effects, dig?

Now! Take one of these moons, ok? Put a fuckton of hydrogen all over them. Say over a billion or so years that just keep accumulating hydrogen. Now, the sun is so damn infernally hot because of just how much HYDROGEN [this is key!] is being supercompressed throughout it, ok? The mass of the sun means its gravitational forces are IMMENSE. As a result, it keeps drawing matter towards its core, and since there isn't enough space for all those atoms to occupy on their own, there is a HUGE amount of friction, so great in fact that it causes the atoms to fuse with one another in this process we call (aptly enough) fusion, which creates a HUGE amount of energy, which we feel every day we wake up as the sun rises. Notice how it gets colder at night by the way...

SO! Gravitational forces pulling matter inwards from mass means more friction, and friction means heat. Now, take a moon-sized planetoid made so heavily out of water, so that it is constantly being pulled inwards. It is theorized that these moons have cores much denser than Earth's, which has caused them to attract and retain so much hydrogen. Dig?

Now, as a result, the ice is so thick that it insulates against the cold of outer space, allowing for enough warmth from the friction of the hydrogen molecules to render it into liquid form. This is basic chemistry and physics, OK? It's stuff you should have been paying attention to instead of praying and sitting in confession booths, and the fact I have to sit here and explain this shit to you without collecting a god-damn teaching salary is pissing me off to no end so you BETTER BE PAYING ME SOME CLOSE ATTENTION, cuz this shit shouldn't be as free as it is!

See, hydrogen changes its forms depending on atomic friction, which we experience as warmth or cold [friction or lackthereof, respectively]. The faster the atoms and molecules go [because they are bouncing off another, because the less space they have to work off of, the more they bump into each other], the more heat is caused by them brushing against and colliding with one another. It's the basic fundamental essence of energy generation, ok? Thermodynamics. You should've learned this shit in high school. I don't know why the fucking high-school dropout with a GED is having to educ-

...Seriously, this is infuriating...

See, hydrogen is in an ice form when H2O doesn't collide much...if at all. When there is no or little collision to it, the atoms don't bounce against one another, they just kind of, well, sit there. But the more mass that occupies space, the less room there is to maneuver, the more collisions, the more friction, the more energy, the more heat. Following me? Any little bit of outside force will cause a chain reaction. So, gravitational forces pulling the H2O inwards causes more and more mass to accrue in a steadily smaller and smaller place, which causes more friction. At this point, the mass of water starts to lose its solid form because it's moving too much. This is when it becomes water, alright? LIQUID water. Now, if it has a place to escape, eventually the atomic collisions will be so violent and rapid that they fly apart wildly...which results in steam, or the "gas" form of H2O. Now, oceans do not have steam at their depths because the hydrogen is trapped. It instead becomes plasma at that point; water boiled to a superheating point without having a release, which is so powerful that it causes heat to generate throughout it. This is what happens with stars. They are masses of plasma-fusion.

SO. With all this in mind, we have the scientific explanation for why water exists on our planet [thermodynamics at its most basic], and why the likelihood of it existing elsewhere in our own star system, let alone the rest of the galaxy is not so much "miraculous" as it is "mundane" and "very expected."

Refute this if you really think you can, but clearly I spent far more time paying attention in high school than you did. Little less time reading up on mindless, brain-numbing psalms, less time making Hail-Marys, more time paying attention to shit that has been scientifically established as fundamental elements of the universe around us. If your goal is to not get laughed out of the room by anyone with any semblance of education on the topic, then I advise you to actually pay attention to things that aren't just spoon-fed to you by a bunch of 40+-year old virgins who want to make you as miserable as they are.

(August 19, 2013 at 1:52 am)ronedee Wrote:

(August 18, 2013 at 12:49 am)Creed of Heresy Wrote: See, I love it when people who have no fucking clue what the fuck they're talking about try to pretend like they know what they're talking about.

HERETIC.

..."mounting evidence" of water on other planets? Oh, really.

You'd better start up your space probe, and get your divining rod out.... because, besides "trace amounts of vapor & gas" water only exists on earth.

And there is no "clear reasons" how or why:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_water_on_Earth

http://www.icr.org/earths-water/

Are you willfully ignorant? It appears so. You seem to be unwilling to read anything about science.

Water in space
More water in space