(August 16, 2013 at 1:26 am)Esquilax Wrote:

(August 15, 2013 at 7:34 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Now, wait a minute here. That's speciesism. Is there some particular reason I have to limit my attraction to people?

And that's organismism! Why are we limited to just species? What about our non-living, inorganic lovers!

* Jackalope hides the sock and hand lotion.

What? Who, me?

(August 16, 2013 at 2:11 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote:

(August 16, 2013 at 1:26 am)Esquilax Wrote: And that's organismism! Why are we limited to just species? What about our non-living, inorganic lovers!

* Cthulhu Dreaming hides the sock and hand lotion.

What? Who, me?

I've heard of hand lotion but sock lotion?

Dry socks man. What? Have You never heard someone complain that their socks were not soft enough?

(August 16, 2013 at 3:38 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote:

(August 16, 2013 at 2:11 pm)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: * Cthulhu Dreaming hides the sock and hand lotion.

What? Who, me?

I've heard of hand lotion but sock lotion?

It puts the lotion in the sock.

Listen, do I need to spell it out for you?

A study of identical twins show that around 40% of sets are split, one is gay and the other is not. So to some degree there is a question of genetics, to what degree I do not believe has been determined. This could point to the way a person perceives things as they grow up, thus a choice to be gay or not to be gay. Then maybe identical twins are not as identical as thought to be and some people are born to be attracted to the same gender and others are not. This is all for science to work out some day.
As for what scripture says (ie. God), the act of same gender sex is not natural and is to be refrained from completely. I do not know anywhere in scripture that says some people are or are not born with an attraction to the same gender, as far as I know the scriptures are neutral on this. It however is not neutral on the act of homosexuality in any form. Scriptures do not speak against the gays not having rights, it speaks against gays having the right to marry and act physically upon their feelings. So I would believe that gays having rights as married couples is scripturally wrong. Thus the reason most Christians are opposed to those rights and it is our right to choose to oppose those rights according to our Constitution. To deny a gay person the rights as an individual is wrong as long as the community says it's okay, and scripture does not speak against it, this should be a Christians stance. This subject is a hot bed of disagreement and until both sides sit down and peacefully try and draw sensible conclusions to this it will remain so, hate and anger have never solved a problem, only increased the misunderstandings of both sides.

GC

PS: German we can have sensible conversation, it's when people like you try and ruin a debate before it's conclusion that hurts this whole thing.

GC

Science already worked it out, but thanks for the FYI. And why do we need to sit down and come to some middle ground with Christians? It's called Separation of Church and State. You can disagree with homosexuality for unfounded reasons all you want, but you have no right to tell them they can't get married under secular law. It's amazing that people are finally coming to this realization.

(August 19, 2013 at 5:58 pm)Godschild Wrote: A study of identical twins show that around 40% of sets are split, one is gay and the other is not. So to some degree there is a question of genetics, to what degree I do not believe has been determined. This could point to the way a person perceives things as they grow up, thus a choice to be gay or not to be gay. Then maybe identical twins are not as identical as thought to be and some people are born to be attracted to the same gender and others are not. This is all for science to work out some day.

If it is a matter of genetics then it is not a matter of choice. As you yourself seem to say, there is a difference between being gay (i.e., being born desiring sex and love relationships with people of the same sex) and choosing to engage in homosexual acts. What needs to be emphasized here is that the person whose being is disposed toward finding intimate happiness with people of the same sex are sacrificing enormously if they choose not to fulfill their inborn desires whereas it costs you or I absolutely nothing.

(August 19, 2013 at 5:58 pm)Godschild Wrote: As for what scripture says (ie. God), the act of same gender sex is not natural and is to be refrained from completely. I do not know anywhere in scripture that says some people are or are not born with an attraction to the same gender, as far as I know the scriptures are neutral on this. It however is not neutral on the act of homosexuality in any form.

Trust me, no one here much cares what the bible has to say on the subject.

(August 19, 2013 at 5:58 pm)Godschild Wrote: Scriptures do not speak against the gays not having rights, it speaks against gays having the right to marry and act physically upon their feelings. So I would believe that gays having rights as married couples is scripturally wrong. Thus the reason most Christians are opposed to those rights and it is our right to choose to oppose those rights according to our Constitution.

But when you act collectively in the political realm to foist laws on everyone using as a rationale what it says in the bible, you turn ordinary non-theists into anti-thesists. If your bible motivates you to ban gay marriage then you had better be prepared to justify that in secular terms. The bible-says-so will not suffice as a reason. I have no qualms with your beliefs until you try to impose them on the rest of us. Then you motivate me to not only push back on that issue but to do everything in my power to destroy the root cause.

(August 19, 2013 at 5:58 pm)Godschild Wrote: To deny a gay person the rights as an individual is wrong as long as the community says it's okay, and scripture does not speak against it, this should be a Christians stance. This subject is a hot bed of disagreement and until both sides sit down and peacefully try and draw sensible conclusions to this it will remain so, hate and anger have never solved a problem, only increased the misunderstandings of both sides.

GC

I think you mean Christians should be okay with extending equal rights to gays when that is the law of the land no matter whether you think the bible tells you as Christians to live otherwise. That is a sensible position although it is still inhumane to the gay children taught to hate themselves who grow up in Christian families. But if you think that arguing from the bible is a rationale for political action you will simply motivate your enemies.

I think it shows a particular lack of faith in God to legislate against sin. Do people really have free will with a state-sized gun aimed at their heads?

It's also pleasantly ironic that almost anywhere you find an atheist, you find a determinist-- and someone who will allow every reasonable freedom to his fellow man.

(August 19, 2013 at 6:04 pm)BadWriterSparty Wrote: Science already worked it out, but thanks for the FYI. And why do we need to sit down and come to some middle ground with Christians? It's called Separation of Church and State. You can disagree with homosexuality for unfounded reasons all you want, but you have no right to tell them they can't get married under secular law. It's amazing that people are finally coming to this realization.

Yes I can vote against it, regardless of what you think I have the right by Constitution to speak my mind.

(August 19, 2013 at 8:56 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(August 19, 2013 at 6:04 pm)BadWriterSparty Wrote: Science already worked it out, but thanks for the FYI. And why do we need to sit down and come to some middle ground with Christians? It's called Separation of Church and State. You can disagree with homosexuality for unfounded reasons all you want, but you have no right to tell them they can't get married under secular law. It's amazing that people are finally coming to this realization.

Yes I can vote against it, regardless of what you think I have the right by Constitution to speak my mind.

Why would you want to vote against it? How does same-sex marriage affect anyone except the people entering into the union?