(August 22, 2013 at 2:04 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: It's essentially talking to God, there are various different ways you can pray it doesn't always have to be verbal or asking for something particularly.

Except that the question isn't what you're doing, but how you know its having the effect you ascribe to it. Say you pray to god right now: how do you know that a: the communication is being received, b: the entity you are communicating with is your specific god, and c: that entity is willing and able to respond, and in fact, does respond?

And how do you intend to demonstrate all of those things outside of your own personal experience?

(July 29, 2013 at 5:17 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Why do you pray? (This is mainly for the theists, obviously.)

It seems to me that prayer, broadly speaking, falls into two general catagories: intercessory prayer (where you ask God to effect a change for you or for someone else) and supplicatory prayer (where you tell God how wonderful he is, or how thankful you are, or some such).

Why bother? If everything which happens is according to God's plan (or God's will, or Divine Providence, or whatever the current buzzword is), then an intercessory prayer cannot possible affect the outcome - what is going to happen has been decided already by God. Furthermore (apos to Ambrose Bierce), isn't it rather arrogant of you to ask God to alter his plans on your behalf, when you've already admitted that you're unworthy to have him do so?

And, since God is omniscient, he already knows that's he terrific and how thankful you are - why do you need to tell him? Seems kind of like if every passenger were to walk up to the bus conductor every two seconds and tell him, 'This is the Number 4 bus.'

That in mind, what is the point of prayer?

Boru

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Gil

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(August 22, 2013 at 2:07 pm)gall Wrote:

(August 22, 2013 at 2:04 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: It's essentially talking to God, there are various different ways you can pray it doesn't always have to be verbal or asking for something particularly.

So one is more valid than the other invalid ways it gets nothing done but spend your time talking to your imagination?

Prayer isn't to be confused with magick. Magick is where you attempt to invoke God or some other supernatural being to bring some form of change into the physical universe through elaborate rituals and incantations and such. The Catholic Church is I suppose more into that kind of thing if you think about it.

There is such a thing as "petitionary prayer" but that tends to involve asking God to grant you the strength to do/not do something, strength to endure some kind of misfortune and so on. But prayer does have a real demonstrable physiological effect some kind it's certainly not "imaginary" as you claim. If were just imaginary I should think people would have realized this and stopped doing it thousands of years ago.

(August 22, 2013 at 2:15 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: If were just imaginary I should think people would have realized this and stopped doing it thousands of years ago.

Why do you give humanity that much credit?

(August 22, 2013 at 2:15 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: There is such a thing as "petitionary prayer" but that tends to involve asking God to grant you the strength to do/not do something, strength to endure some kind of misfortune and so on. But prayer does have a real demonstrable physiological effect some kind it's certainly not "imaginary" as you claim. If were just imaginary I should think people would have realized this and stopped doing it thousands of years ago.

There are thousands of religions dotted throughout the history of humanity. According to your theology, all of them bar yours were appealing to false, nonexistent gods that could do nothing for them, and yet they continued. So either the effects are imaginary and the idea of looking to a higher power is just a comforting, repetitive meme, or any physiological effects that do occur happen regardless of the particular god being prayed to, and can therefore be ascribed to praying itself, and not the deity being invoked.

@Sword of Christ

Ever seen people throw salt over their shoulder after spilling it? Knock on wood for luck? Carry lucky totems, such as rabbits' feet, four leaf clovers, horse shoes etc? Walk around ladders rather than under them? Cross their fingers? Read up on how someone else imagines the positions of the planets relative to certain background stars dictates their actions? When these and many, many other superstitious rituals are assessed critically, we find that the results of them are indistinguishable from blind chance. Realising they are imaginary doesn't stop people from doing them. It doesn't even slow them down.

In the case of prayer, however, things get worse.

When prayer was studied by the pro-religionist Templeton Foundation, measuring any effects against heart bypass patients in double-blind tests, it was found that the only patients who experienced complications were those being prayed for and were told about it. All other groups recovered at about the expected rate. Presumably, lying in a hospital bed awaiting major surgery isn't the best time to hear someone say "I'm going to pray for you", unless the intended response is "Oh shit - they think I'm not gonna make it... what else aren't they telling me?"

Source

(August 22, 2013 at 2:24 pm)Psykhronic Wrote: Why do you give humanity that much credit?

Humanity being made in Gods image has a lot going for it. It's a much more positive view of humanity than the other alternative imo. Though I'm not saying believe anything you like as long as it's comforting, C.S Lewis said that all you would ultimately get from this approach is "soft soap and ultimately despair". So what matters is what you think is true.

(August 22, 2013 at 2:30 pm)Esquilax Wrote: There are thousands of religions dotted throughout the history of humanity. According to your theology, all of them bar yours were appealing to false, nonexistent gods that could do nothing for them, and yet they continued. So either the effects are imaginary and the idea of looking to a higher power is just a comforting, repetitive meme, or any physiological effects that do occur happen regardless of the particular god being prayed to, and can therefore be ascribed to praying itself, and not the deity being invoked.

Other higher religions may well come under the influence of the Holy Spirit. Most of them you'll notice are based purely on the what one man claimed to be or experienced. Judaism and Christianity though it has founder figures was a much communal shared experience that can be placed in a specific place and time in history. If you take the resurrection for instance that's something hundreds of people had claimed to witness it wasn't something specific to say Saint Paul though he had his own mystical encounter with the risen Christ on the road to Damascus. He was very much a changed man after that experience.

Prayer of course isn't exclusive to Christianity I think it's a universal way of tapping into the ultimate reality/being regardless of religion or belief imo. There are still people who pray/worship the Norse gods or something like that but that would be idolatry and the kind of thing the Bible took great pain to discourage. Idolatry isn't the same thing as iconography before you mention that.

(August 22, 2013 at 3:14 pm)Sword of Christ Wrote: So what matters is what you think is true.

Not a very reasonable or logical way of approaching reality.

(August 22, 2013 at 2:50 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Ever seen people throw salt over their shoulder after spilling it? Knock on wood for luck? Carry lucky totems, such as rabbits' feet, four leaf clovers, horse shoes etc? Walk around ladders rather than under them? Cross their fingers?

Superstitions? Sure yes, I don't do anything like that myself. Well ok I may salute the odd magpie to cancel the bad luck but I'm trying to stop myself from doing that. Walking around ladders is a better idea anyway as something could drop onto you or the ladder could collapse with you under it.

(August 22, 2013 at 2:50 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Read up on how someone else imagines the positions of the planets relative to certain background stars dictates their actions?

Astrology? Horoscopes are a load of cobblers certainly that generally just consists of making a number of general statements that can be apply to anyone. The higher level occult mystical/Kabbalist stuff is interesting though it's all a bit metaphorical and symbolic of inner self than a means of telling the future.

(August 22, 2013 at 2:50 pm)Stimbo Wrote: When these and many, many other superstitious rituals are assessed critically, we find that the results of them are indistinguishable from blind chance. Realising they are imaginary doesn't stop people from doing them. It doesn't even slow them down.

If you're talking about prayer it does very definitely have a direct physical effect on an individual than science can observe certainly, it isn't some kind of a superstition. They have been studies on the brain scans of someone in prayer. What tends to be stimulated here are the regions of the brain associated with consciousness such as the temporal lobes and the areas of the brain associated with bodily and spacial awareness begin to shut down. It's somewhat similar to Buddhist mediation as well there is something called contemplative prayer in Christianity which runs along very similar lines. The main difference is that the aim is to partake of God as a distinct separate entity to yourself rather than merge into him and become part of God yourself. Only one man in Christianity was a part of God as you know.

(August 22, 2013 at 2:50 pm)Stimbo Wrote: In the case of prayer, however, things get worse.

When prayer was studied by the pro-religionist Templeton Foundation, measuring any effects against heart bypass patients in double-blind tests, it was found that the only patients who experienced complications were those being prayed for and were told about it. All other groups recovered at about the expected rate. Presumably, lying in a hospital bed awaiting major surgery isn't the best time to hear someone say "I'm going to pray for you", unless the intended response is "Oh shit - they think I'm not gonna make it... what else aren't they telling me?"

That would be spiritual healing not prayer you're really talking about. Obviously that is possible seeing as Jesus, his disciples and various Christian Saints have been able to do this and some people outside the Christian faith as well. It's been very widely reported throughout history. How common it is for people to be able to do this I'm not sure but I think you would have to be spiritually advanced to some very level. Just having any old random person say a few well meaning words on your behalf won't do anything, they would have to at the very least lay their hands upon you and channel something. Jesus was apparently able to do this remotely without being physically present but we can safely say he was something of an exceptional case.

(August 22, 2013 at 3:15 pm)Maelstrom Wrote: Not a very reasonable or logical way of approaching reality.

You believe what you don't think is true? You may as well say it's better to be a married bachelor.