(September 17, 2013 at 10:57 am)Godschild Wrote:

---

(September 17, 2013 at 9:31 am)Doubting Thomas Wrote: Drich and GC

---

This passage regarding "there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom" has led rise to the "wandering Jew" legend. Some people believe that one of those who witnessed Jesus' trial was doomed to keep walking the earth until Jesus' second coming. So somewhere out there's supposedly a 2000-year-old Jew who can't die until the second coming. I almost expected Drich to bring this up "the burden of proof is on you to show that every man standing there listened to Jesus actually died and one of them isn't still alive somewhere," but he took it in another direction. Apparently the second coming really did happen 2000 years ago and all these Christians waiting for Jesus to come back are all heretics.

Please explain how I'm wrong.

GC

---

(September 17, 2013 at 1:05 am)max-greece Wrote: You get that from this:

“Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Matthew 16:28

I don't know GC - that seems more than a stretch to me. Surely its a reference to the second coming which did not happen in any of their lifetimes - unless one or more of them is secretly still alive today....

---

Matthew 16:24-28 are the verses that go together, Jesus is describing salvation which brings people into the Kingdom. Without the people there would be no Kingdom, an empty Kingdom is no Kingdom at all. The people are the church and the Kingdom is the church ie. the people.

GC

These are the verses you mentioned:

24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life[a] will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Now I know you guys are much better at this than me but it would appear to me that Jesus is saying that he will return (with his angels) and do the rewarding - as in down here on earth, personally,

I'd say the context supports my interpretation more than this referring to the establishment of the Church.

Late Edit:

I just want to try to illustrate what I am saying a bit better here:

To me this says Jesus was expecting to return (end of the world type stuff) within the lifetime of the disciples and that didn't happen.

Imagine the Church was never set up. Would you read it as "Bugger me - there was supposed to be a Church!"

It seems to me that you are equating what was predicted with what actually happened and then making the tenuous link merely to keep consistency even though it really doesn't seem to fit properly.

(September 17, 2013 at 3:12 pm)Doubting Thomas Wrote:

(September 17, 2013 at 10:57 am)Godschild Wrote: Please explain how I'm wrong.

Please explain how you are right. Sounds like you're once again stretching biblical passages to mean what you want them to mean.

It's not just that passage, there are many more where Jesus specifically tells people that the end of the world and his second coming will occur in their lifetimes. In fact, Matthew 24 in its entirety is about Jesus making predictions about what will happen during the end times, and after that he says "This generation shall not pass from the earth until all these be fulfilled."

You've shown nothing you need to give explanations.

(September 18, 2013 at 8:58 am)Godschild Wrote: You've shown nothing you need to give explanations.

Why? You don't.

I've written an article detailing these failed predictions on atheiststoday.com, go read it there.

(September 16, 2013 at 3:07 pm)ThomM Wrote: “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Matthew 16:28

What if the original texts were mistranslated, and the word "kingdom" was originally "pants"?

(September 18, 2013 at 12:18 pm)Tonus Wrote:

(September 16, 2013 at 3:07 pm)ThomM Wrote: “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Matthew 16:28

What if the original texts were mistranslated, and the word "kingdom" was originally "pants"?

Well that ruined mine. Nice one.

U O Me 1 pair y-fronts (white originally - now yellowish).

(September 17, 2013 at 8:45 am)John V Wrote:

(September 16, 2013 at 4:24 pm)Drich Wrote: Hold on cowboy, Christ says "28 “Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

So the burden of proof on you to establish that Christ's Kingdom did not come as described before all of those men died.

An IMO simpler explanation is to consider "see." He didn't need to include that. He could have said "there are some standing here who shall not taste death till the Son of Man comes in His kingdom.” The literal reading of the passage was fulfilled in what John saw and recorded in Revelation. Some people consider it fulfilled in the transfiguration, which immediately follows the above verse.

Wow. You, Drippy and G-C should go out in the wilderness and start The Church of The Almighty Shitheads. With any luck you'll never come back.

(September 18, 2013 at 12:32 pm)Minimalist Wrote: You, Drippy and G-C should go out in the wilderness and start The Church of The Almighty Shitheads.

Can't, as it's already been done. It's called atheistforums.org.

(September 18, 2013 at 3:55 pm)John V Wrote:

(September 18, 2013 at 12:32 pm)Minimalist Wrote: You, Drippy and G-C should go out in the wilderness and start The Church of The Almighty Shitheads.

Can't, as it's already been done. It's called atheistforums.org.

This ain't no Church!

(September 18, 2013 at 4:13 pm)max-greece Wrote: This ain't no Church!

Oh come on, green name = mitre cap

(September 18, 2013 at 1:03 am)max-greece Wrote:

(September 17, 2013 at 10:57 am)Godschild Wrote:

---

Please explain how I'm wrong.

GC

---

---

Matthew 16:24-28 are the verses that go together, Jesus is describing salvation which brings people into the Kingdom. Without the people there would be no Kingdom, an empty Kingdom is no Kingdom at all. The people are the church and the Kingdom is the church ie. the people.

GC

These are the verses you mentioned:

24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life[a] will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Now I know you guys are much better at this than me but it would appear to me that Jesus is saying that he will return (with his angels) and do the rewarding - as in down here on earth, personally,

I'd say the context supports my interpretation more than this referring to the establishment of the Church.

Late Edit:

I just want to try to illustrate what I am saying a bit better here:

To me this says Jesus was expecting to return (end of the world type stuff) within the lifetime of the disciples and that didn't happen.

Imagine the Church was never set up. Would you read it as "Bugger me - there was supposed to be a Church!"

It seems to me that you are equating what was predicted with what actually happened and then making the tenuous link merely to keep consistency even though it really doesn't seem to fit properly.

As we have discussed before I'm not one who lives by nor attain truths by suppose, suppose did not happen so let's take it as it is.

I went and studied these verses and the same in both Mark 8:31-9:1 and Luke 9:21-27. This is what I've been trying to get across when I've said the scriptures need to be studied to find the reality within them, I was guilty of not taking my own advise in this case.

The verses you put in bold and the same in Mark and Luke are about Christ's return in the future. However the last verse in all three passages of each book is speaking of the resurrection and ascension. Like I said before, the Kingdom is the church, this is why some would not see death before it came into it's power. The church grew rapidly after the Pentecost, the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Christ had to rise from the grave before the church, Kingdom, could begin, this is what Christ meant in the last verses of each passage, He would rise into His Kingdom.
Matthew 24:36 Christ says"However, no one knows the day or the hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows. This is probably after His statement in Matthew 16, Mark 8 and Luke 9, but whether it's before or after Christ would not contradict what He said. And for those who believe the writers made an error, well IMO they couldn't be that dumb, remember these passages were translated many times don't you think people would have noticed such mistakes if they occurred.

GC